Philmont - how to select adults?

[Mike F]

Surely someone has faced this before - we have more than twice as many adult volunteers than we have slots for them. Any suggestions on how to decide who gets to go?

 

Considering previous level of participation on campouts, etc., as the prime factor.

Other subjective considerations: fitness level, backpacking experience, whether or not they went last time, general attitude (positive vs more negative), etc.

 

No idea how to balance out the adult who is a big supporter and goes on most campouts, but can have a somewhat negative attitude.

 

Or what about the adult who has a great attitude along with extensive backpacking and high-adventure experience, but hasn't been very involved with the troop due to work, etc.?

 

Or the boy with a very slight disability and his dad who tries to do everything with him, but is in the worst physical condition of the bunch?

 

Any way we slice it, there are going to be some very upset people and I don't want to make this decision myself.

 

Best idea we've been able to come with so far is to convene a small group (SM, ASM, CC, CM) and basically cast ballots to rank order the candidates.

 

Any ideas welcomed!

 

Thanks!

 

-mike

[purcelce]

One definate rule is that the adult (and kids) MUST be in shape, and can handle the pain. The crew that I went with this summer, had one advisor who's feet became a problem. At times we had to stop every five minutes. On our trip to Baldy which was a 12 mile day, we had to send a few guys ahead just to make sure we got our commisary pick up before they closed.

 

Good attitude, and someone who can keep their mouth shut when things go bad is another plus. At Philmont I learned how to keep my mouth shut,and let the kids solve their own problems. It was tough at times but well worth it, great to see the youth work on their own.

 

Just a few thoughts.

 

 

Cary P(This message has been edited by purcelce)

[Mike F]

Cary,

I hear you. Did your advisor have a problem due to boots not broken in?

Physical fitness is definitely one of the subjective criteria we'll use. During upcoming discussion with adults, I'm going to relay a tragic story from our former SM. When he was a youth at Philmont, they had an adult advisor die of a heart attack on the trail. That was before the current weight standards, but underscores the fact they are there for a reason. Any motivated adult has plenty of time to get in shape. Problem is that we need to let people know where they stand very soon so we have to go by our perception of fitness now.

We plan 5 shakedown hikes with hopes of being able to flush out any who are just not up to the challenge. We'll also work on training the adults to stay in the back to let the crew chiefs and boys learn to handle decisions.

 

I'd love to just pick my "dream team" of advisors with good skills and attitudes, but some of our most active adults who want to go aren't at the top of that list. Hurt feelings are inevitable, but we need to avoid creating a huge rift.

 

[Twocubdad]

Perhaps you can set some minimum criteria, including making it through a couple of shake-down hikes, and then just draw straws among those who make the cut.

[buffalo2]

Why do you have to select those adults right now? Don't know what your timetable looks like, but might be able to work as an expanded crew on conditioning and pre-runs. As you get closer the problem might resolve itself... Would be nice to have a gentlemen's agreement regarding a fair way to make the choice though!

[purcelce]

Mike,

When it comes to Philmont back country, hurt feelings take a back seat. Remember Philmont is for the boys, not the adults. Let your youth crew make the choice, or use your shakedown method.

 

 

Also the weight standards are non-negoitable. After we got off the trail I was approached by the contingent leader from our neighboring council who had just arrived. Seems that two folks from thier contingent was well over the max weight and needed a ride back home.

 

As for the feet, I think it was mix of boots and not being in shape.

[scoutldr]

Not to start another off-thread debate, but the implication that overweight means that one has heart disease is just not true. It's just one of many risk factors. I'll bet smokers are not automatically disqualified, but they should be, using that logic.

[purcelce]

scoutldr,

 

I wasn't implicating that being overweight = heart disease.

Philmont rules state that if a person the maximum allowable weight, they are not going on the trail.

I know quite a few guys that close to the Philmont max and quite a few years older then me that can do cartweels up and down the mountians.

Now for smoking, I think that smoking has not place in Scouting.

Actually Philmont helped me quit smoking...It has been over 4 weeks since I've had a puff of the ole cowboy killers. I used to hate going all weekend on a campout without one, then get home and hide in my bathroom puffing away on a few. Now those days are over

 

[dsteele]

First and foremost, congratulations to purcelce for quitting smoking. I've done it many times, but not for very long.

 

You guys have hit on part of the reason for weight limits at Philmont -- past experience with health problems. These problems are not necessarily inherent, but the odds are higher of everything from knee problems to heart disease (again, not inevitable, but certainly possible) in the overweight.

 

As to the maximum weight (which is, I recall,) somewhere around 300 pounds, I'm told that it is the maximum weight Philmont can be assured could be airlifted to a hospital with any sort of certainty.

 

As to the selection of adults, you may want to consider doing what council's I've been involved in have done: recruit a selection committee of hearty souls, come up with criteria, perhaps interview interested adults. Then make your selection and live with the results. Put second choice adults on a waiting list in case a selected adult has to back out for whatever reason, and have the guts to flat out let the ones the committee feels would badly represent the troop know that you feel that way.

 

I agree that Philmont is for the boys. If an adult's feelings are hurt, but there is a possibility of something good (like a change in attitude) comes from it, then it should be done.

 

DS

[Mike F]

Wow - these are great ideas!! Much better than solo - I am once again amazed and humbled. Thanks! -mike

[dan]

I thought that the weigth limit at Philmont was based on height? Or is this a

1. Old Rule

2. Myth

 

[purcelce]

Weight limits are based on height.

 

 

[Mike F]

Dan - RE: Weight limits -- at the risk of derailing this thread, I happened to have the official word right here:

You're right - weight limits are based on height, with one small exception for youth.

For adults (over 21) - will not be allowed on trail if exceed max weight based on height.

For youth -- Philmont doctors will assess fitness and may provide an exception of up to 20 lbs on max weight, but still cannot exceed an absolute max of 295 lbs. (This must be discussed with Philmont BEFORE you get there.) (My guess - this is to make allowance for very muscular football players, etc., with consideration to ability to rescue a youth who gets into trouble with ankle, leg, etc.)

Note: There's also a minimum weight recommended for each height. They don't harp on it as much, but you can readily see the problem at low end of scale. A 5'0" person below min weight of 97 lbs is going to have a hard time carrying a 35-50 lb pack while staying within pack weight of no more than 25-30% of body weight.

 

If we want to discuss this more, let's please start another thread. Thanks!

[SR540Beaver]

Well crud!!! According to the charts, I should be 7'8" for my weight!

 

I do need to get in better shape for when my son crosses over to a troop next February. A number of our Cubs have crossed to a small troop that we went to camporee with this past spring. The SM told me that the boys really didn't care for the type camping we were doing at camporee as they are more of a backpacking and hiking troop. I remember thinking.....oh, GREAT! I am overweight and have a lot of hereditary joint problems as well as being an insulin dependent diabetic. That all sounds rather bad, but I'm actually in pretty good general health according to my doctor and my annual physicals. I look forward to Boy Scouts and sharing the experience with my son. However, I don't want to be the fly in the ointment stoping the hike every 30 minutes to check my blood sugar and eat a snack to cover the physical activity.

[eisely]

Clearly reasonable physical fitness is a minimum requirement for adults. After that, the question is, who can make this the most successful for the boys? Prior experience at Philmont is desirable in an adult leader, but should not be the dominant criterion. If I were making such a decision myself, I would tend to favor adults who were demonstrably capable leaders who had not been to Philmont before, just to allow more people to enjoy this rare experience. I was fortunate to go there twice, but I would defer in the future to someone who had not gone at all but was clearly eager and able to go