Search and Rescue

[hops_scout]

I was wondering if anybody's unit does search and rescue. I am interested that and was just wondering

[johnmbowen]

I help teach high and low angle rock rescue in the summer, and we often run our Scouts through it just to be thorough, but we have never had to deploy the Scouts for real.

 

[buffalo2]

Wouldn't that make a great CAmporee theme...

[johnmbowen]

This is the course that I help teach. We do this in the summer mainly for climbing company guides. We fit the Scouts in too.

 

 

http://www.hpoiadventure.com/rescuetraining.html

[matuawarrior]

Our Venture Crew changed over this year from High Adventure to SAR. We're just learning the process of becoming an actual SAR unit.

 

Most of our training at the moment is First Responder Training. We're slowly building up. Since it's the first time this concept is being used here, we have to get legislation to allow the crew to participate in call outs, and fall under the jurisdiction of the local EMS or Law Enforcement Agency.

 

I doubt if the crew will get any calls any time soon because we have a long way to go. The Local Fire Department loves the idea since it will free up their members to perform other emergency duties.

 

We received most of our information from another SAR Venture Crew on the East Coast. I'll try to get that info to you.

 

Matua

 

 

[matuawarrior]

Here's the site that my venturer's are getting their info: www.nasar.org

 

Matua

[SR540Beaver]

Just a "dumb" question from a Cub Scouter! We have had numerous discussions in other threads about what BSA will and will not allow because of safety concerns. Some of them seem almost silly at times. So, even though Venturing is for "older" scouts, isn't SAR a rather risky thing to expose scouts too? I mean, walking thru open fields searching for a missing toddler is one thing, pulling people out of raging, swollen and flooded streams is another story.

[hops_scout]

I think it would be just the opposite. Using teamwork and rope to save a person from water would be a rewarding expereince.

[SR540Beaver]

Hops,

 

I didn't say it wouldn't be a rewarding experience.....it would. The question is with BSA so super concerned with safety (and rightly so), what is their stance on what kind of SAR activities a scout can participate in. Can you imagine the public uproar if a teenaged scout fell into the same river and drowned in an attempt to save someone as opposed to an adult firefighter, soldier or policeman? Any loss of life would be horrible, but people would be more accepting of a professional adult losing his life in the line of duty better than a Jr High or Sr High aged Boy Scout.

[hops_scout]

But if they worked hand in hand with firefighters, soldiers, etc not on their own, then they wouldnt have to be in the river- they could be on the bank assisting.

[johnmbowen]

Bad example: Swiftwater Rescue is something that is highly technical and very dangerous, similar to high angle rock rescue. Training is absolutely required, and a great deal of practice is necessary. I only help teach each, and even with lots of practice, I would stay away from either, unless you were forced, which is not the case with SAR. In any event, the pro SARs would most likely say, 'thanks, but no thanks.'

 

There are many things that people younger than 18 can contribute, and do well, but going into danger as in these examples, where the rescuer could become a victim in seconds is not something that any SAR incident commander will allow minors to deal with.

 

There is nothing wrong with helping with SAR, but do so under the direction of the local SAR unit, not on your own.

[SR540Beaver]

johnmbowen,

 

Thank you, you took the words out of my mouth. I've known a number of policeman and firemen over the years thru baseball, scouts and church. They don't want "civilians" anywhere close to a dangerous situation unless it is relief work handing out blankets and coffee from a distance. They have trained and practiced for years and are paid (although poorly) to take the risk. There have been two incidents in recent weeks of people running into burning buildings to save kids and pets. While commendable, it is still dangerous and they did actually get in trouble with the law for doing it. To a pro, these people muddy the waters and are potential victims themselves. While an SAR person accepts the risks, he tries to minimize the risk as much as possible....and having to watch out for helpful civilians just puts his life at greater risk. I think Boy Scouts can aid SAR in many ways just as any other citizen has when the call has gone out for people to "beat the bushes" looking for missing persons. High risk rescues are out for anyone except trained adult professionals.

[johnmbowen]

Appologies to hopps_scout for my being blunt and short in the last message. My intention was not to walk on him. He is a actual Scout, not an adult Scouter, and so is serious about his questions. I didn't realize the author was you. My mistake.

 

I have often been exhasperated by opinions expressed by adult Scouters on subjects that they should either know, or have done some research on. Especially on the more outdoor subjects that they ought to know something about but so often don't, as they are the ones who take the youth out.

 

So, follows what I should have written.

 

After having taken courses in Swiftwater Rescue (not as SAR, but as collateral safety knowledge and skills for being a professional raft guide and Scout rafting leader) as well as teaching WFA and helping teach WFR, swiftwater safety, High and Low Angle Rock Rescue, I know that there are hard truths about some subjects including first response, and rescue. The first rule thereof is "Never make a second victim, especially yourself."

 

This is particularly serious in swiftwater rescues where seconds count as life and death and calm and correct decisions are hard. First among these is the first rule, and secondly the idea of putting other people, especially minor persons in danger or forcing them to make these kind of decisions at that age, where even the correct decision could cost a life is not something that is fair to do.

 

It is the hard truth that the Incident Commander of the pro responders will not use youth in any way that could result in their injury or death. In any swiftwater problem with my Troop, it will be the adults that will have to go into a rescue situation, with the Scouts taught what to do to help. The 'strong swimmer' will not be a Scout.

 

However, there are many highly useful things that Scouts and young people can do. The best example is of a friend (now a ER doctor in residency) who was a HS student when I spent my only year teaching at that level. This boy took all the required classes and became an EMT before his 18th birthday. Though he could not be signed off, he did ride with the ambulances and assisted in real cases, the only student of that entire school that did anything so useful, and something that has made him a great man.

 

I would suggest that Scouts interested in this kind of activity individually go out and take as much of whatever technical classes that they are interested in, like WFA or WFR for outdoor stuff, or EMT. (though learning technical climbing, kayaking and others are great too) and serving with the real responders.

 

Scout units that can perform at high level are rare, and heavily depend on the adult expertise they can draw on (and all adults in Scouts ought to go that extra mile). But for Rescue, they will either be relagated to support or search by the Incident Commander, or they will have to be trained not to rescue others, (unless they are the only ones on site, in which case we adults will have to take the sharp edge), but to rescue themselves in accident situations, which is what my Scouts prepare for.

 

From what I have found about hopps_scout, he will do very well, being a real self starter.

 

JB

[hops_scout]

John, no hard feeling first of all.

 

You mentioned not making a victim of yourself...

"Look around to se what caused the accident, then be sure you dont get hurt as you approach the victim," Boy Scout Handbook, 11th edition.

[johnmbowen]

Indeed, that is the first step in a first response Standard Operating Proceedure (SOP) from ARC procedures.

 

However, in any response, especially in one that will involve a definite threat to life especially as in the Swiftwater Rescue, or even rock rescue, the rescuer who assumes the position of Incident Commander will have to make the hard decision as to whether or not he/she and the other rescuers are prepaired, knowledgible, and in position to perform the rescue without endangering their own lives unduly.

 

This decision would be done at basically the same time as the first step above. This decision is all the more agonizing in a swiftwater situation where the status of the victim may change radically for the worse in less than 6 minutes, the time it takes to go brain dead from drowning or suffication.

 

If the answer is no, the victim who may be only yards away but inaccessible in roiling rapids, may die if the rescuers are not able to perform the rescue without dying themselves and compounding the problem for other rescuers. A failed rescue is one where you don't get the victim out alive, a badly failed one is where the rescuers die trying, or become victims to be rescued themselves!

 

Slamming a kid under 18 with this kind of grief is not something that any incident commander, rescuer, or parent wants to do.

 

There are many SARs positions that can be filled or supported by youth, but these examples are not some of them.

 

Take as much Red Cross First Aid as possible, I would recommend Emergency Response, When Care is Delayed, CPR-for the professional rescuer, and as much else as you can. I am especially fond of WFR which is most useful for me, however the 110 hours plus 5 outdoor modules it takes makes it hard for me to keep current. My pro guides are required to take WFA, with WFR recommended. If you are in to this, get into an EMT class! Like I said, that kid who became a doctor was the most real kid in all his school so far as I was concerned. He is still my friend, and is responsible for cajoling and forcing me to climb at my limits (now only about 5.10 on rope with whining).

 

JB