Mike F Posted November 8, 2002 Share Posted November 8, 2002 It's time for a new pack. Grew up on External Frames and never had a complaint. With all the rave about Internals, I rented one for trip a while back. OK, it was stable, but I found equipment harder to access and my back was continuously soaked with sweat. I'm also mostly a trail hiker -- not likely to spend much time doing off-trail scrambling, cross-country ski trekking, etc. Have begun to think all the press about expensive internal frame packs is mostly marketing and your average Scout-type hiker not only doesn't need it, but it's not the best for our needs. Any thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eisely Posted November 8, 2002 Share Posted November 8, 2002 You got it right. While internal frame packs have much to offer, IMHO, it is an extravagence that most of us can do better without. Growing boys in particular should stick to external frame packs. Buying new boots every 18 months or so to accommodate growing feet is expensive enough. Why punish the budget with a new pack periodically just because the barely used internal frame pack no longer fits? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob White Posted November 9, 2002 Share Posted November 9, 2002 Always felt that the best pack is the one that fits you and holds the gear you want to take. Everything else is personal taste. Bob White Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoreaScouter Posted November 9, 2002 Share Posted November 9, 2002 My $.02: Depends on how much weight you're lugging, where you're lugging it, how much punishment you dish out to your pack, and whether or not you put a value on the "latest" innovations and doo-dads. I think internals are good to about 40 pounds or so; above that, I like an external. Hiking open trails on foot presents no problems with an external; cross-country skiing or any kind of bushwacking, especially on uneven terrain, and an internal may work better. Externals generally take a lickin' better than internals, all other things being equal. Most of the design attention/innovations and engineering efforts lately seem to be slanted toward internals rather than externals. About 10 years ago, the military officially scrapped the external frame "alice" pack for an internal frame job that didn't have a girl's name as an acronym. First mistake troops made was loading it to capacity with gear troops carry, not what backpackers carry. Stuff like radio antennas & batteries, claymore mines, ammo cans, spare barrel kits, and so on. Next sound you heard was the screams as frame stays popped out of the packs and into said troops' backs. Slowly but gradually, many outfits that actually use backpacks started scrounging the old external frame "alice" packs from depots and boneyards, and turning in the internals... Second mistake: the new pack was HUGE. Troops, like nature, abhor a vacuum. If there's space, I gotta fill it with something. An orthopedist's dream. KS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Long Posted November 12, 2002 Share Posted November 12, 2002 Marketing drives everything. For a while I had a bunch of guys drooling over Gregory's Denali Pro Expedition pack. Great pack if you are doing real expeditions. Gross overkill for any typical scout outing or high adventure. Marketing is designed to increase desire and the demographic our scout occupy is the most reasearched on the planet. They know what buttons to push. Internals are good to whatever weight they are designed for. I've had my terraplane up to 65 lbs and it was far more comfy than any external I have ever seen and I have used a lot of them. The key is to not carry that much weight and strain the pack, and you. Equipment access depends on how you pack and how much stuff you like to get to when hiking. All I ever need access to is food and raingear. One trip is a great sample of the differences but a poor overall indicator as you need to learn how to work with the pack. Internals to me are worth their weight in gold but I backpack constantly. (been out three times in the last six weeks) However I argue that scouts should get external packs until they know what they really want due to the cost and the "make do" mentality. The cost due to the low buy in associated with externals and the expense of buying internal packs to keep up with a wildly growing scout and "He'll grow into it" and "Making do" with an ill fitting pack is a very bad idea. I've looked at a lot of the internals that "grow" and I have been dissapointed in the build. The suspensions all slip when you least can afford it. Mountainsmith particularly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
insanescouter Posted November 13, 2002 Share Posted November 13, 2002 I personally perfer the Internal frame packs. I have had trouble in the past being unconfortable backpacking becuase the pack kept sliding down - do to my lack of hips. However as you noted internal frame packs can be more diffuclt to pack, usually have less pockets, are sometimes harder to find things in, and don't allow your back to breath - but I have found that my comfort on the trail is more important then these problems and the fact that it stays snug to my back has come in handy more then once. It is also important to note that although I love my internal pack and will necer go back to an external - internal frames are not for everyone. InsaneScouter http://insanescouter.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Decorah Posted November 14, 2002 Share Posted November 14, 2002 Without question, the internal frame pack has worked best for me. After many miles of backpacking, I really like the internal's ability to hug my back and ride more comfortably. The ups and downs of the trail are handled much easier when the pack isn't separated from one's back by an aluminum frame. It fits snuggly as part of your body instead of something attached to it. One benefit of the external frame is the lower weight when empty, but that can be somewhat nominal depending on the pack. With that said, there are many different types of internal frame packs. Many are expensive versions of a long tube and have their own benefits based on their profile. Others have more external pockets, making it a little easier to reach commonly needed items. Good luck in your search. Happy Trails... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eisely Posted November 14, 2002 Share Posted November 14, 2002 There are two separate and distinct issues here. What is right for a fully grown adult and what is best for a growing boy? I happen to own an external frame pack for myself. It is nearing the end of its useful life and I will seriously look at an internal frame pack at that time. I still go with Mike Long's recommendation to discourage the boys from getting internal frame packs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Decorah Posted November 15, 2002 Share Posted November 15, 2002 Hi Eisely, What are the distinct differences to which you're referring? Your post makes it sound as if a youth should have an external frame pack and an adult should have an internal frame pack. Is that what you mean? I've been on backpacking trips where the boys have had some of each. There's little question about which packs performed best - the internals. They rode better, were more adjustable, and with the external pockets, carried lots of gear while staying comfortable. Plus, the external frames squeaked once in a while. The internals also had less "play" as we hiked the trail, making the pack ride, sort of, like an extension of the upper body. Please share your thoughts on the virtues of the external frame. There are some who like the externals because the frame separates the pack from the backpacker's back, thus keeping it cooler. Maybe I'm missing something. Happy Trails... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eisely Posted November 15, 2002 Share Posted November 15, 2002 My concern is the ability of the pack to grow along with the boy. I think external frames are better at this. It also depends on what type of backpacking you are doing, as alluded to in an earlier post. If you are doing mostly rugged steep trails, or no trails at all, an internal frame is going to perform better. Since you are probably not going to be taking the younger boys into difficult terrain it makes more sense to me to encourage them to start with an external frame. If you are dealing with older boys who have achieved most of their growth, the issue of having a pack that grows more easily with them becomes less important. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hops_scout Posted December 18, 2002 Share Posted December 18, 2002 I think that, and I know we all seem to want to get away from being "paramilitary" as seen in uniform forum, an ALICE pack would be one of the better options. It can "grow" with a boy and it is huge. Also, it should last a long time because otherwise it wouldnt be gov't issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eisely Posted December 26, 2002 Share Posted December 26, 2002 There is a two page article in the January - February 2003 issue of Scouting magazine that covers the same ground as has been covered here. Just reinforcement for a point of view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSA223_CT Posted April 19, 2003 Share Posted April 19, 2003 Try a search on a Jansport Scout. It's a good kid size, and it adjusts. http://www.epinions.com/otdr-Backpacks-External-Jansport_External-Scout Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
insanescouter Posted April 19, 2003 Share Posted April 19, 2003 What pack is best for a growing Scout... Shouldn't this be the Scouts decision since he will be the one carrying it? We can analyze something all we want but what it comes down to is what is right for one Scout won't be right for another. Let me give you a real example. When I was just getting into Backpacking maybe 12 or 13 years old my parents got me a very nice external frame backpack - it was awesome... then I went on my first backpacking trip and almost never went again... the pack just did not fit my body correctly... the trip was miserable, parts of the trip I was even in tears. I never used that pack again ... my dad then rented a few different packs for me and I tried each finally deciding on the internal frame. My parents then bought me this pack for another birthday or Christmas or something and I am still using it. Yes the pack was fitted to me in the store, but a loaded pack for 5 miles is different from a empty pack for 90 seconds. I often make the recommendation to new Scouts try several packs, barrow, rent, whatever be make sure you are comfortable with it. I don't care if its an internal or external as long as it works for you. Usually once a year or so the Scouts are taught by the older Scouts the differences, befits, care, etc of the backpacking gear. InsaneScouter http://insanescouter.com Webmaster webmaster@insanescouter.org Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
red feather Posted April 20, 2003 Share Posted April 20, 2003 The key to buying a pack is to have it fitted to you at the store. Not just put an empty pack on but put the pack on and then add weight (sand bags) to the expected weight range and see how the pack rides. Many but the pack off the shelf or through a catalog but do not take the pack to a reputable store to get it fitted. This will cause a problem with the pack when it is put into usage. When our troop is planning a backpacking trip we will have the boys and adults bring their packs (packed) to a meeting for fitting. Makes a world of difference whether it is internal or external. Mine is an external and I just like the way it rides, especially after getting it fitted. Not once but periodically as I change. yis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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