Opinions on Patrol(Den) vs. Troop(Pack) Fundraising

[ScouterPaul]

Is it appropriate for an individual Den or Patrol to hold a fundraising activity for the sole benefit of the Den or Patrol? One of our Leaders purchased $1,000 of popcorn for his Den to sell. Our Cubmaster agreed to segregate the profits for use by his den. This has created a minor ruckus with some of the other dens. I am currently riding the fence on this issue. The Leader is assuming all the risk should they not sell the popcorn.

[eisely]

Does this den leader have something specific in mind to do with the funds? Was this discussed in committee, or at least with the parents of boys in the den, beforehand? I don't think there are any real hard and fast rules about these matters, and a little competition among dens in fund raising is a healthy thing. But this one sounds a bit over the top.

 

Dens should not be amassing funds on their own without some kind of purpose in mind. If this purpose is understood and agreed to, the other dens may follow along to the betterment of the entire program. It is not a good idea to leave these amounts of cash in the hands of den leaders. The pack treasurer should deposit these funds in the pack bank account, and ear mark them in all reports as funds belonging to a particular den.

[sctmom]

I always viewed popcorn money as a PACK fundraiser. Most dens in our pack don't need that much money to exist. We collect dues of $1 per week per scout during school months (we aren't very active during the summer). Those dues go to the den. The more my den can earn for the pack, the better the program is for all. I never considered that a den leader would want to keep the money. I guess if I really needed something the pack would give me some money.

 

[shemgren]

Fundraising is a pack funcution, not a den funcution. The Unit Money Earning Application makes this clear, as well as the Cub Scout Leader Book. Dens are a sub-unit of the Pack, and cannot do any seperate fundraising.

 

All den expenses should be figured into to Pack' budget, covered by dues and fundraising. Dens don't hold any money for themselves, all their funds are part of the Pack's fiances.

 

If your Pack committee is allowing such actions, I would talk the Committee Chair and suggest training.If that don't work, contact your Unit Commissioner and/or District Executive for assistance. Such problems often need a disinterested third party to work out.

 

If such problems continue, you may need to bring in your charter partner.

 

The bad feelings between dens are only the begining with this type of problem.

 

[TIGERMOM]

Our popcorn sale is always a PACK fundraiser.

However if an individual den has a need for money for a certain activity that goes above what the pack can spare we have always done individual den fundraisers. The only requirement is that 10% of what that particular den raised goes into the pack fund.

For example last year our wolves wanted to plant a garden for one of their elective activities. They held a carwash and raised about 150.00. they put $15 into the pack fund and used the rest for seeds and such.

 

[EagleWB]

I would like to know what kind of Den it is and what the money is going for. I know here that Cub resident camp costs about $175.00 per boy. If this leader is trying to get all the boys to camp it can be a good way to earn the money. How much money goes to each boy from your Pack fund raiser? It sounds like there is a need for better communicaations, so all involved know more of what is going on.

 

I think eisely has the best plan.

[ScouterPaul]

Thanks everyone for your input. Here is some additional information. The Den is a Bear Den with 12 boys. The original purpose for the funds were to offset the cost of a trip to an Aquarium located in Northern KY about 2 hours away. It now appears that this trip may not happen and I have been talking to the leader about using the money to offset the cost of sending the boys to Webelos Resident Camp. Popcorn is the primary fundraiser for our Pack. The decision to sell additional popcorn was done after all the Scouts turned in their popcorn orders.

[Chief Decorah]

Eagle,

A quick question - $175.00 for resident camp? Wow, that seems like a lot. Our resident camp, which is a Cub World complete with multiple theme buildings, is $95.00 for four days and three nights, food, etc. A week at Boy Scout Camp is about $165.00. What do your boys get for their money? (I apologize for being off the subject of the thread).

[eisely]

There is nothing inherently wrong with fund raisers for smaller groups below the unit (pack or troop) level. For example, groups of youth planning to go to Philmont often do their own fund raisers with the full blessing of all interested parties. In fact, scouting encourages youth involvment in fund raising to support specific activities as a vehicle for teaching valuable lessons. I think the key is the objective intended to be served. I for one react negatively to fund raising just for the sake of doing so. This is a very good way to burn out both youth and parents. In this particular case, since the original orders were already turned in, this whole effort could turn out badly. One presumes that the original orders are the results of the boys' best efforts. How many times can they hit up the neighbors for the same product?

[KoreaScouter]

Gotta be careful here. If you actually read the back of the unit money earning application, it does say that packs and troops can do this, not dens and patrols. Having said that, all the other posts have great references to individual den and patrol fund-raising requirements that are unique and wouldn't be appropriate to tap the pack or troop budget for.

 

In my experience, and I've never been criticized for this, we've always required dens/patrols with these unique fund-raising requirements to spell them out to the committee, who then reviews it for appropriateness (again, based on a review of the Guide to Safe Scouting, committee guide book, troop/pack by-laws, and the all-important back side of the money earning application), then if it's okay, prepares the paperwork for council review. In that way, the den/patrol with the unique requirement isn't asking a Scout who isn't participating in their event to underwrite it from pack/troop funds, and the committee has oversight on the fund-raiser to ensure it's in compliance with national, council, and troop/pack policies. It's been a win-win situation.

[eisely]

Sound advice from KoreaScouter.

[scamp]

I agree with shemgren that fundraising activities are authorized for the troop or pack ONLY. The sources listed are clear. An annual program plan and/or monthly planning meetings would ensure that one den does not plan activities so different from the others that it requires additional funds of that amount. I was taught and have taught new den leaders that dues (however, they may be collected, weekly, monthly or annually) are intended to be the primary source of funds to reimburse den leaders for out of pocket expenses for den materials. My personal opinion is that the den program should not be and is not intended to be so expensive that a special den fund-raising activity is required. At the risk of pissing everyone else off, I strongly suggest ScouterPaul turn to his DE or Council Office for guidance on this because I believe there are some pretty clear policies on fund-raising and they do not include den/patrol fund-raising activities.

[eisely]

The primary responsibility for managing, and restraining if necessary, these kinds of patrol/den fund raising activities rests with the unit committee. I have made this point, and others have also made this point. ScouterPaul responded earlier that there was an original purpose behind this endeavor that was presumably legitimate. What will happen next is anybody's guess. Perhaps ScouterPaul has more information for us on this.

 

I think the official policy of endorsing fund raising only at the unit level is designed to force unit committee awareness of what is going on, and ensuring that fund raising is thought through ahead of time. I don't think the policy is intended to prevent fund raising for activities below the unit level that the committee has agreed to. A unit committee, by reviewing and accepting a proposal, and filing the proper paperwork, effectively makes it a recognized unit actitivity as KoreaScouter points out.

 

This is not something that deserves a DE's attention, unless the committee is completely dysfunctional. At most unit commissioner intervention might be warranted. If there are deeper problems of uneven programs among the dens, or jealousy among den leaders, then this is a symptom of a deeper problem.

 

The den leader in question may have acted hastily, but I hate to kill a volunteer's enthusiasm over something like this. There has to be a better way of resolving this kind of situation than ringing up the DE.

[scamp]

I'm afraid I don't totally agree with eisley on this one. My purpose for suggesting ScouterPaul contact the DE or Council office was to get confirmation of the BSA policy on fund-raising. However, eisley's suggestion of contacting the unit commissioner to ask questions and clarify the situation is the first person to contact. The unit committe does not have the authority to circumvent or change BSA policies, just as they do not have the authority to change advancement requirements. Therefore, this is an issue that goes beyond the committee if there is some confusion. In other words, if the committe does not know or understand BSA policies/rules, then someone better find out! BSA has clear policies describing money-earning activities, when it is appropriate to wear the uniform, advancement requirements, membership requirements and others.

I also agree with eisley that this particular situation may go beyond just money-earning issues, but programming issues. Why should one den need to earn more money than the rest of the pack? These are issues that should start at the committee level, but if there is a question of what is the correct policy, there are resources beyond the committee.