Giving Out Knots Arbitrarily

[BSA24]

> My problem with giving out a thousand

> knots is that soon a scouter has a fleet

> of knots on his uniform... I begin to

> question how involved they are with the youth

> and that is the point of the program.

 

The point of the program is fun with a purpose - for everyone - leaders and the youth. The program is not supposed to be not-fun for adults and fun for youth.

 

The uniform is a tool to encourage good behavior, brotherhood, and it also eliminates differences between us so we come together and enjoy ourselves more.

 

It's also for fun. Fun with a purpose.

 

In that sense, the uniform is a toy. If patches are in the wrong place, or there are lots of them, perhaps you should consider whether or not the wearer thinks that is fun. Or whether or not you looking down your nose at him like he's committing a crime is fun for you or for him.

 

Everyone is supposed to have fun in scouts. It is something we joined so we could do fun things. The uniform is no exception.

 

Yes, I would frisbee out knots like crazy to people if it gets me good results. The knots exist for a purpose: to encourage fun with a purpose. The knots do not exist to make us generals or to make us meet the highest standards. They are a silly toy that we play outside in.

 

I think as scout leaders it is important to remember that Peter Pan's treehouse was a better model for a scout troop or cub scout pack than a military platoon handing out medals.

 

All the guides and books and rules exist to help us have fun. Lots of boys think it is fun to wear a shirt with badges all in the same place. They like getting that next award.

 

There's no difference between them and grown men thinking green and red knee socks are fun to wear.

 

And then "that guy" says "you aren't supposed to wear your OA sash on your belt." I just roll my eyes because they've forgotten the spirit of scouting is childish fun with a purpose.

 

It's for fun. If it ain't fun, I don't want any part of it.(This message has been edited by BSA24)

[johnponz]

One of the purposes you mention are "the ideals." Included in these ideals is the Scout Law including Trustworthy and Obedient. Are you really setting a good example to the youth by wearing awards you did not earn? What are you teaching?

 

 

The message is it is ok to cut corners if it is fun. You are forgetting the purpose and only concentrating on the fun.(This message has been edited by johnponz)

[johnponz]

One of my favorite uniform quotes comes from one of US Scouting's fonders and our 1st Chief Scout Executive James West, "We are anxious to have the co-operation of every Scout and Scout Official in making effective the regulations covering the Official Uniform, Insignia and Badges. To tolerate a conscious disregard for requirements, even in simple matters, breeds disrespect for law and order. When I have found boys wearing the neckerchief under instead of over the shirt collar, it developed that invariably the Scouts, and indeed their own Scoutmaster, did not understand the correct way of wearing the neckerchief. I am anxious that every Scout and Scout Official study the diagram, wear the neckerchief in the right way, and that he invite the attention of other fellows to the right way when he finds them wearing it wrong."

 

He is speaking of neckerchiefs in particular but his point carries through to all aspects of uniforming.

 

(This message has been edited by johnponz)

[desertrat77]

It's one of my favorite quotes too, though for a different reason. I think it's evidence of someone who can't separate what's important from what's not.

 

Mr West was wrapped waaaaay too tight. "Conscious" improper wear of the neckerchief "breeds disrespect for law and order." And he uses the word "anxious" twice.

 

That's a quite a leap, and perfect insight to the uniform police mentality--people who willingly don't wear a scout uniform right are scofflaws. What a hoot!

[Scoutfish]

Well, I think my views on the uniform are clear, but I do agree with desertrat77 in that I think it is rediculous to compare wearing the uniform wrong as a starting point for anarchy in society. People stealing, murder, mayhem, " cats and dogs living togeter..." etc.....

 

 

I do believe West was a bit uptight. And we should make sure the scouts are having fun.

 

But there is a compromise in the middle: Cut the scouts alot of slack, but leaders should lead by example - which we do even if we are not aware of it!

 

 

[johnponz]

My point was that there are many who like to quote BP, but it took more people than just BP to start the Scouting movement. West was very importasnt in making the BSA what it is today. His organizational skills are really what shaped the US movement, and Scouting as an organized organization in the US probably would not exsist without his executive skills. His contributions were very important to the movement.

 

The bottom line with the knot issue is that adults should demonstrate good character and not wear knots that they did not earn, and should try to follow the rules and wear the uniform properly. Scouting is supposed to be fun, but played within the rules of the game. We are not all free to make our own rules.(This message has been edited by johnponz)

[BSA24]

>I think it's evidence of someone who can't

> separate what's important from what's not.

 

^ This.

 

Earnest Seton, the founding Chief Scout, hated James West. He claimed that he invented Scouting, that Baden Powell boomed it, and that West killed it. He thought West was the antithesis of Scouting.

 

If Seton were alive today, and he found out there was an award called the James West award that you could buy for yourself, he'd probably say, "Figures."

(This message has been edited by BSA24)

[johnponz]

What one person thinks of another does not really stregthen an argument. I am sure West did not like Seton very much either.

[BSA24]

> What one person thinks of another does not

> really stregthen an argument.

 

Indeed it does not. West's opinion about people who wore their uniforms incorrectly is also not a strong argument.

 

What is a strong argument is this:

 

* Uniforms and awards exist for a reason - to achieve an objective

* The objective is not justice in the world

* The objective is not to make all of the tin soldiers line up neatly

* The objective is not to do thing "the right way"

* The objective is not to follow the rules

 

The objective is for everyone to have fun and to learn something.

 

If people are frowning or making serious faces, you are doing scouting wrongly.

 

"Scouting is not an abstruse or difficult science: rather it is a jolly game if you take it in the right light. In the same time it is educative, and (like Mercy) it is apt to benefit him that giveth as well as him that receives." - Baden Powell

 

Some people like to follow the letter of the law because... THE LAW! Some people follow the spirit of the law, but break the actual literal law itself. The speed limit encourages you to drive slower. Do you always drive exactly the speed limit?

 

This is an important question.... because if you ever, ever ever drive over the speed limit by even 1 mile per hour, and your child sees you do it, then you have done the exact same thing as a leader to awards another leader a stupid yellow and blue knot even though they only attended three round tables instead of four.

 

As a famous man once said, "Let he among you who is without sin cast the first stone."

 

Anyone?

 

Anyone?

 

I didn't think so. You all drive over the speed limit all the time. A bet a traffic safety background check on the participants here extolling the virtues of following the requirements to the letter come hell or high water would reveal stacks of past tickets. A GPS database dump from your phone would probably show 49 mph in a 45 mph zone on a daily basis.

 

Same thing, boys.

 

 

 

 

 

[johnponz]

Another logical fallacy this one is called apples and oranges. Speed limits and knots are 2 different things.

 

I will agree if a leader has attended 3 meetings instead of 4 and has a legitimate reason, this may call for an exception and I have no problem with that. That is way different in giving out a knot when someone attended 0 roundtables when a certain number is required. It is not about being a tin god or any of those other things. It is about building character which is important and teaching the Scouts to do things the right way.

 

As you say knots are not that important. Why should Scouters get upset when they do not get an unearned one?

 

[Lisabob]

You know what, all this talk and hard feelings being flung around here are making me more sympathetic to the "let's just get rid of the adult knots" camp!

 

 

[johnponz]

There is really no hard feelings on my part. I am just taking part in a discussion.

 

As far as getting rid of adult knots, I would be for that with regard to the "training knots." However, the adult recognition awards such as District Award of Merit, Silver Beaver, Silver Antelope, etc. deserve some sort of uniform insignia (in my opinion), and of course Eagle and AOL deserve some sort of recognition on the uniform (again in my opinion).

 

I would 100% agree with disposing of the training awards (if it were my call-which it is not). However, let's keep the recognition type of insignia.

[JoeBob]

So the adult awards for actually doing something, getting trained, aren't as important as recognitions from the 'good ole boys'? Aren't there more than a few scouters on this board who seem to be very competent hard workers who are focused on their boys, but who don't stand a chance of getting any recognition from their district? Not that they're the type to care about beads and knots...

 

Knots and speed limits are different indeed, and breaking the speed limit is MUCH MUCH worse than wearing a knot you might not have fully earned.

 

Because your child knows and can plainly see that you're breaking the speed limit (frequently).

Your boys will never know that you were one RT short, or that the requirments changed, or that you didn't know the mouse type in the requirements and trusted your CC that two years as CM earned you a knot to go your Boy Scout uniform.

 

Hair splitters amuse me when they parse their words to argue the benefits of hair-spitting.

[fred8033]

BSA24 - Nice points. Right attitude. Thanks.

[johnponz]

Not that it really matters, but I do not break the speed limit often. I decided a long time ago that the best way to avoid getting any tickets was to not break the limit. I also STOP at stop signs where others seem to roll through. I do not have a stack of traffic tickets as was stated that we ALL must have (I do not remember the last time I got a ticket but it was years ago). Again speeding and knots are apples and oranges and really should not be used in any discussion regarding one or the other.

 

The recognition awards are just that recognition from the District, Council, Area, Region or national that you have done outstanding work. By calling the various geographies of Scouting an "ole boys club" you are downgrading the significance of the award.

 

The District Award of Merit can be awarded to any Scouter in the district and is not awarded for service to the district (per se). The award is for outstanding service given to youth within or outside of Scouting. The only reference to the district is that cooperation within the district is required.

 

Knots should be awarded for major accomplishments. I believe getting one of the recognitions is a major accomplishment. I am ok with the training awards as well if they are earned.

 

It was not my idea to do away with them. I just agreed that I could live with that for the training awards but believe the recognition awards should remain if such a decision is made.

 

Let's keep all the knots, but earn the ones that we wear so we can wear them proudly.

 

Personally, I would be ashamed to wear a knot that I did not earn, and really would see no purpose in wearing it. I learned when I earned my Eagle many years ago that anything worth wearing is worth really earning, and to use an often quoted phrase...It is the journey not the destination. If you wear a knot or any award that you have not earned, you have arrived at the destination without the benefit of the journey. What good is that?

(This message has been edited by johnponz)