Giving Out Knots Arbitrarily

[blw2]

I agree with JoeBob.... Most folks don't have a clue about all of these awards.

As a new leader, i have been trying to dig into it.... but there's your problem! Why should one have to dig? Most folks aren't as gung ho, and really don't bother to dig.

 

I saw a similar thing happening with beltloops. Younger boys and their parent patners don't know what a beltloop is, but they see the older boys getting them at the first pack meeting so they say, well bobby played xyz sport over the summer, so sign him up for that!

 

I was asking before our last pack meeting of the year, for our Tiger parents to get any awards (along with confirmation that thay had comleted the Tiger Rank activities), so that I could get the awards lined up... Some of the moms sat down with the book at banged out a shopping list.... it looked like these boys were skipping from Tiger to Eagle!

 

Similar to Seattle Pioneer's suggestion above, what my DL & I did, was take them at their word for all, except those that they clearly didn't do. The only measure we could use for that was knowing that none of tem had made any sort of presentation to the Den or Pack, and that being one of the requirements, we simiply didn't award those.... Never heard boo about it.... it's not like the boys were expecting the awards because thay had done the work, or anything....

I think next year we'll try to make a bigger point about the REQUIREMENTS for awards. Seems that the same could/should be done for adult knots, etc...

 

Nobody wants to acuse or argue about this stuff, that's why I like Seattle Pioneer's suggestion.

[SeattlePioneer]

Joe Bob's comments about the knot program are often dead on.

 

 

[BSA24]

The standard for requirements is "do your best." It is not "meet the requirements exactly as written perfectly." That has always been the standard in scouts.

 

The purpose of the adult awards is to create incentive to continue training and to perform well on the job. The purpose is to provide the youth with a great, motivated leader who knows what they are doing.

 

I recommend you base your decision on what to do next on those two key points.

 

In my area, district roundtable is a horrendous joke. It is one hour of leaders standing up making announcements. Most who attend are die-hards like me who go to see their buddies from other units. The new folks come once and never come back.

 

I can't require my den leaders to attend that round table for those knots. Round table isn't useful or productive.

[Scoutfish]

BSA24,

 

 

"The standard for requirements is "do your best." It is not "meet the requirements exactly as written perfectly." That has always been the standard in scouts."

 

 

No, that is the standard in CUB SCOUTS and it is for the Cub SCouts, not adult leaders.

 

When it comes time for adult award knots, the standard is "MEET THE REQUIREMENTS "

 

On the progress recording sheet( for Wolf/ Bear) it says : " Do 5 of the following"

 

Not do your best at, try to do, do as much as you can, etc....

 

I earned the Unit Leader of Award of Merit a month or two ago. I earned the CubMaster Award and the Cub Scouter Award 8 Days ago.

 

I didn't do my best at meeting the requirements, but met them and exceeded them. Went to every RT but 1 in the past two years. Went to Pow Wos also for two years. Exceeded the minimum requirements in all catagories and exceeded some by a long ways.

 

Granted, I would have done exactly what I did even if there was no award - I didn't do it for the knots..I did it because it is what I did for the boys.

 

Just saying......for adult knots, YPT, position training, WB, etc.....it's meet the requirements. "Do your Best" is a cub scout ideal, not boy scouts, not adults.

[Scoutfish]

"I can't require my den leaders to attend that round table for those knots."

 

You are right, you cannot require that, but BSA can. And no doubt there are certain times that special circumstances do require us to call the scout office and explain why we thing somebody has earned the knot due to a specific sitaution not adrdressed in any book. But that's why we call the scout office.

 

" Round table isn't useful or productive."

 

I'll argue that one two. Ours are great. I have no doubt nor am I disillusioned to think everybody elses are great too. I have no doubt whatsoever that many suck and are indeed useless.

 

But that is an indication of your district's RT program and not RT's in general.

 

[BSA24]

I have some great leaders in my pack that do an awesome job. We lost only 2% of the cub scouts this year.

 

There is no way you could ever have pulled that off, Scoutfish, because my leaders are pretty sophisticated and never would have put up with your approach or your communication style.

 

I get results. Been getting them for years. I'll stick to my methods, and ignore the uniform nazis.

 

Oh look. An "ignore this user" function.

 

Click.

 

To the OP: No, the council doesn't really care who wears cub scout leader training awards. If they did, you couldn't just buy them at the scout shop.

 

Wearing them is largely the honor system.

 

You will find on these forums a disproportionately high number of scout police personalities than you will out in the real world. In the real world, as a commissioner, I'm just happy to see my leaders giving a hoot about the boys, following the program to their best ability, etc. It's all about the youth.

 

Our job as experienced scout leaders is to encourage other leaders to do a good job. It is not to enforce rules. We are not in charge of people. We are not their bosses. We are their inspiration.

 

If a guy goes to three roundtables instead of four, but seems to make up for it in some other way, hey, what the heck? Give him the knot. It doesn't hurt anyone except for the controlling types that want everything done to their personal preferences.

 

And while these guys are moaning about cub scout leader awards and taking themselves so seriously, be aware that there are plenty of silver beaver award holders out there who have the award for basically being a leader for ten years and being buds with the other leaders in the council. They are also a huge number of district merit awards basically given out as confirmation of coffee-club status to guys who didn't really do anything you aren't doing every day.

 

BSA is a funny program. The awesome awards and badges we all enjoy offer the opportunity to recognize achievement but also create a situation in which some are encouraged to berate, belittle, and try to bully others.

 

Scouting is supposed to be fun with a purpose. Remember what the purpose is, and do things that are fun. The uniform should be fun, and it serves a purpose. I fail to see any fun or any purpose in telling a guy "One too few round tables, bro. Fail."

 

Scouts is a fun hobby. We are not in the military. These are not awards given out by the president for saving life. They are training and trying awards.(This message has been edited by BSA24)

[JoeBob]

BSA24: Bullseye!

[desertrat77]

BSA24, well said, thanks.

[Scoutfish]

"BSA is a funny program. The awesome awards and badges we all enjoy offer the opportunity to recognize achievement but also create a situation in which some are encouraged to berate, belittle, and try to bully others."

 

Yes indeed , I agree. Sometimes people say things like : "There is no way you could ever have pulled that off, Scoutfish, because my leaders are pretty sophisticated and never would have put up with your approach or your communication style.

 

I get results. Been getting them for years. I'll stick to my methods, and ignore the uniform nazis."

 

Yep, call people names for following the rules. A scout is trustworthy ,you know. He is also obedient and courteous.

 

Or is that unless you just don't agree with rules or people who follow them?

 

Never said that non of our leaders earn the knots, and we did not get into scouting just for the purpose of earning them.

 

But we do our jobs , and do them the best we can. If we earn knots doing that, then sweet! If we don't earn them, that's okay too since that wasn't our gaol. We do give out other awards, plaques and certificates.

 

And like I said before, if some circumstances are really outstanding, we call the scout office for guidance instead of just deciding to toss out anything rule that gets in our way.

 

And again, maybe your RT's are worthless, but that's a problem in your district, not mine. Not my fault or my issue that our commissioner can present a great RT and yours can't.

 

As for knots, you can't just buy them, they are a restricted item and you have to submit paperwork..

 

It maintains the integrety of any and all restricted items that way.

 

If you just knock any and all requirements out of the way, then what is then award about?

 

"ole Mr Jones here was in scouting 25 years and did alot for our district and the boys too. Earned 9 knots in the process. Mr. Smith here has been doing it a year too and we just ignored the requirements and hganded him 3 just so he could pat himself on the back."

 

Yeah, I see how you look down on me.

 

Maybe you could see about getting a purple heart for your leaders too. Just forget those nasty list of things that are supposed to be done to EARN them.

 

Oh wait, you can't hear me, you are too busy sticking your fingers in your ears and making that loud humming sound.

 

You do that to everybody who doesn't see things your way? Then call them bullies and nazis ?

 

 

 

 

 

[Eagle92]

I admit I'm a uniform policeman So here's my $.02 worth.

 

I see the various knots as recognition for adults who go the extra mile. I would not hand them out arbitrarily because I feel it would be disrespectful to those who did legitimately earn them.

 

I know the Round Table or Univ. of Scouting requirement is probably the hardest. Especially if your RT is useless to non-existent. But maybe step up to the plate and offer to help get the RT on the right path.

 

I admit my RT attendance has been mostly Boy Scout RTs for a variety of reasons, but most importantly because we did not have a set CSRT. The BSRTs did help out with most of the district info though.

 

I also admit that while I did 3 or 4 RTs when I was day camp program director, I also didn't help get the RTs on the right path because I had other, more pressing duties. But once I stepped down ad CSDC program director and had my replacement committed, when offered I took the RT position.

 

And I can tell you, your RT commissioners do need help. It cannot be one man shows. So if your RT is having challenges, and you can help out, do offer.

[Basementdweller]

Scoutfish.....You can walk into any scout shop and buy most any knot available with no paperwork involved.

 

You have never noticed the number of adult eagles we have in scouting far exceeds the number actually produced??????

 

I will share the tale of an Adult scouter I met at a Cub resident camp, Had the philmont arrowhead, eagle, AOL, youth Religous knots....I had been to Philmont so I struck up a conversation about Philmont and asked if he returned to Base camp a crossed the Tooth.....Blank stare......Then he began regaling the boys with stories of 100 pound backpacks and bears ravaging their campsite and getting their food...... BULLPUCKY.

 

Knots and patches mean nothing other that the wearer had the money to buy them....

 

[Adam S]

I am kind of scared by this thread...

 

So many people think it is better to just give out a patch to someone who cannot meet requirements instead of stepping up and fixing the problem... I am sure your Key 3 would lovea new Roundtable commissioner

 

My scout shop requires verification for awards unless of course they know you personally, but Eagle ALWAYS requires identification. Are there truly shops selling Eagle recognition without proof???

 

As to the fact that someone is to "sophisticated" well then wouldn't they realize they are being given something they don't truly deserve?

 

The whole point of those awards is to recognize training, roundtaboles and pow-wows are part of that training regime... If you want o recognize them for doign a good job, find soemthing else... why give them the training award at all? If they did not know about it, and they don't meet the requirements anyway, why do it? Get a special patch made or give them a plaque...

 

 

 

[Basementdweller]

This is no different than with the youth.....

 

Each time a requirement is short cut, mile not walked or night not camped......It cheapens the rank...

[Scoutfish]

Look, let's be clear.....I'm not a uniform nazi.

 

But at teh same time, since when did following rules make somebody become a nazi?

 

So anyways, when it comes to the uniform, I'm actually pretty relaxed about it - umm others - that is.

 

When it comes to cub scouts, I am especially relaxed. Cub scout wants to wear his popcorn patch...so be it. He's proud, he's happy and he enjoys the program even more - what's wrong with that?

 

A boy scout donates blood or walks 10 miles for Muscular Dystrophy and gets a lapel pin...then wear it proudly!

 

I wore a "Step up for Soldiers" lapel pin for a couple weeks as I was proud to show that my unit helped out a worthy cause.

 

And when it comes to Cub Scouts, " DO YOUR BEST " Is absolutely the law of the land and a great mission statement.

 

But we are talking about people getting an AWARD knot just so they feel better?

 

What about scouts who didn't quite earn Eagle Rank? Would you give them the patch anyways just because it would make them proud?

 

But we are not talking about cub scouts or boy scouts. We are talking about adults. Supposedly grown up, mature, learned, adults.

 

People who are supposed to be leading by example.

 

Why not just hand out knots to everybody who is a leader who has ever been to at least one meeting/outing/ event.

 

They would all feel good about themselves , I am sure!

 

And when my son is close to graduation, I'm gonna petition the school and suggest that everybody gets a diploma no matter the grade s and everybody gets called class validictorian too!

 

 

And all the parents get a " Parent Diploma " just for being parents!

 

 

And if somebody actually does anything at all to really earn an award, we'll just laugh at them and say: "WOW! You did all that for nothing!"

 

 

 

 

 

[TheGong]

Adam S, I work in a national scout shop and we do not require paper work for any knot unless it is really restricted, but then again we know almost everyone who walks into our shop. We dont carry most restricted knots, those you have to order from national and require paperwork.

My problem with giving out a thousand knots is that soon a scouter has a fleet of knots on his uniform, and then wood badge beads, and then a powder horn dangle. At that point I begin to question how involved they are with the youth and that is the point of the program. A kid doesnt care about all the patches and awards on your uniform, they care that you actually teach them a scout skill, or about life you that you enable them to teach a skill or learn a skill from another person. They want you to be there not to show off, because thats what you really do when you wear a fleet of knots and awards when they are not needed, you show off to kids.