Giving Out Knots Arbitrarily

[Eagle92]

Joebob,

 

Whether you wear the knots or not is your call. Whether you wear the current ones or wear the new knots when they come out is also your call.

 

But my thoughts are that the knots do show your committement and follow through to the youth. I've found knots to also help ease some nervousness among new parents. And I've seen knots being used as icebreakers.

 

As to the CM's control over the knots, yes there are a council recognition. But I do know of some units that track the awards for their leaders and submit the info on their behalf. The apply BP's adage to the training awards that he mentioned about advancement, it should come as naturally as a suntan....

 

[DLChris71]

I've heard several references to the change away from the three den leader knots to one, but does anyone have a good url for that change and when it will be coming? I do like the idea of the device on the knot award instead of the three separate knots.

[Eagle92]

I beleive SCOUTING.ORG under Training Times has the info.

 

Essentially CM Award will be the green and white Key Knot with device, Trainer and Cub Scouter will be the Training Award Knot with device (don't know if there will be 2 different devices or not). The three Den Leader Knots are being consolidated into the CSDL Knot, with devices designating TCDL, CSDL, or WDL. Problem is, there is no TC device at this time.

 

Me personally devices are a P.I.T.B. USe to wear them when i worked for national and they were constantly coming off, sticking me, etc. Now I don't wear them.

[DLChris71]

Thanks for the info. Found the following links.

 

http://www.scouting.org/filestore/training/pdf/The_Training_Times_Fall_2011.pdf

 

"Awards and Knots

The national councils awards committee recently conducted a review of the hundreds of awards presented to Scouts and adults in the BSA. Many recommendations were made to simplify and update procedures, and the awards themselves.

Among the recommendations was the update of some awards and/or the knots that represent them on the uniform. These include the training awards and the Cub Scouting awards.

For example, to give the award the same recognition as the other top unit leader awards, the Cubmaster Award will become the Cubmasters Key and use the Scouters Key knot. The Cub Scouter and Pack Trainer Awards will use the Scouters Training Award knot. The Tiger Cub, Cub Scout, and Webelos Den Leaders Awards will use the Den Leaders Award knot. Devices to be worn on the knots will be available to indicate which awards, and for which program awards were earned.

Scouters who have earned the awards will still be able to wear the old knots as long as they are available.

The training team is currently reviewing and updating the requirements for the awards. So watch here for news, but we expect the details in early 2012."

 

http://scouting.org/training/trainingupdates.aspx

 

Latest version of Training Times

 

http://scouting.org/filestore/training/pdf/The_Training_Times_Winter_2012.pdf

 

The most recent version at the time of this posting:

 

"Guide to Leader Training

As you are probably aware, the Leadership Training Committee

Guide has been unavailable for a while. With some of the

changes in training, awards, and the Journey to Excellence we

have been working on a complete rewrite of the manual.

The new Guide to Leader Training will outline basic council and

district responsibilities for leader training. Since things are

updated and evolve as the needs of youth, leaders, and

Scouting change, we did not want to make the guide a tool that

will be out of date almost as fast as it is printed. It will not

contain the forms and other materials that are more easily

available, and more current, via the training pages of official

BSA web sites. The training page of Scouting.org will list the

current resources.

The new Guide is in final editing and on its way to printing.

Watch for it soon here and in your local council."

 

 

[Jeffrey H]

I have to agree with the opening post. One thing I will say is you should stop giving out awards if the leaders have not filled out and turned the paperwork themselves. Put the onus on them to actually look at the requirements.

 

I always let our DL's, ADL's and committee members know about the opportunity to earn knots. After that, the ball is in their court.

 

I have two great DL's but they have not earned their DL knots. They have not been to any Roundtables or University of Scouting. I would love to give them a knot, but the standards are written.

 

Now, I can petition that someone receive an award if they just "missed" a requirement but came close. In those cases, I don't have a problem asking for a "variance" or "exception." For example, a DL that only attended 2 or 3 roundtables but provides a high quality program for their Den.

 

The purpose of the awards are to recognize those that contribute to making the program great.

[Oldscout448]

I'm very new here but just gotta tell this one. A newly minted scout came to his second troop meeting wearing the red wool jacket with the Philmont Bull on it. I took him aside and asked where he got such a cool patch. turns out it was his Uncle's. I gently explained that to old guys like me that patch proclaimed that he had been to Philmont and climbed Baldy or the tooth. "you mean I can't wear it?" I told him " That is up to you, I am not the patch police, but a scout is trustworthy." The next week the Bull was gone. "I see you decided to take it off" he looked me dead in the eye "I'll sew it back on in three or four years!"

[ScoutPeach]

OK - need some guidance here...Our pack a Cubmaster who somehow procured a Cubmaster knot, sewed it to his uniform, and then asked our Trainer to fill out the paperwork. He has not served his 2 years, is not fully trained, and obtained the knot without District approval or having Council award it.

 

There have been numerous issues between our CC and the CM (the CC is a rules follower and the CM is not). The District told the CC that she had to deal with him but our COR and CE have no prior experience with Scouting and they view this a a personality conflict - not a violation of the Scout Oath & Law (On my my honor....A Scout is Trustworthy).

 

So - what can the committee do to make this right? And - is your District and Council more supportive and proactive with things like this?

 

Appreciate any advice.....

[DLChris71]

At a Committee meeting go over the requirements with the CM and ask if they have fulfilled them. If the CM hasn't met the requirements ask the CM to not wear the knot. The POR patch is for more than honor enough for anyone to wear.

[Jeffrey H]

OK - need some guidance here...Our pack a Cubmaster who somehow procured a Cubmaster knot, sewed it to his uniform, and then asked our Trainer to fill out the paperwork. He has not served his 2 years, is not fully trained, and obtained the knot without District approval or having Council award it.

Talk to him privately if he understood the requirements of obtaining the award.  If he did not understand, then ask him to refrain from wearing the knot until the paperwork is turned in and the award is approved.  We all make mistakes and a little grace is needed here.

If he did understand the requirements but chose to ignore them, then you have a person that practices dishonesty.  Is this the person you want to be the Cubmaster of your Pack?  If the CM lies about earning an award, what else will he lie about?  No one is perfect including a CM, but a CM should exhibit that he is doing his best to follow the Scout Oath and Law.

[Basementdweller]

So Peach what is your position and why ya worried about the CM's knots?????

 

First the District and council could careless about adults fighting about knots....

 

the COR can fire the Cub Master end of problem.....The COR could also ask the CM to remove the patches.......the CC cannot order the CM around....Basically they are equals in the program, they both work for the COR and IH.

 

Far as him getting it illegally...ya can just walk up and buy them at the scout shop, generally no questions asked.(This message has been edited by Basementdweller)

[SeattlePioneer]

So?

 

 

The Pack Trainer shouldn't fill out the paper work, and explain why.

 

I'd let it go at that.

 

 

[Fehler]

Or he may just be confusing the knot with the position patch, thinking he wears it at the start rather then after meeting the qualifications.

[JoeBob]

New leaders don't have a clue!

 

Tiger leaders are just trying to get through the next den meeting.

1- If they have other leaders in their pack who wear knots, the Tiger Leaders don't really know what the knots are for.

2- They aren't sure if they are going to survive this year, much less be around next year to wear fancy awards on their uniform!

3- They probably don't have the time to care, much less invest in 'RoundTable?'

 

To expect new leaders to be aware of an award program aimed at them (BTW - you've gotta fill out your own paperwork...) is not realistic. The Pack has to have a support structure to do that.

[TheGong]

I work in a national scout shop and there is no validation required to buy a knot. That being said I do not believe in adult advacement which is what these knots are, I do happen to wear 2 knots, the arrow of light and Eagle scout (both earned as a youth). I have no problem with people wearing knots that they earned as youth because it shows they were in the program. Also cub scouters have way to many knots anyway and I completely agree with the scouters key and training award program.

[Eagle732]

"the CC cannot order the CM around....Basically they are equals in the program"

 

Every organizational chart I've seen shows the CM under the Committee, not equal to the Committee.

The committee recruits or selects the CM.

So in essence the CM "works" for the committee.

 

All adults serve at the discretion of the CO.