Giving Out Knots Arbitrarily

[SwampYankee]

I just took over as the Cubmaster for my son's pack. In May, it is my job to give out adult awards. One of the traditions in my pack is to give out leader knots for things like Tiger Cub, Den Leader and Cub Scouter. The problem I face is that the Pack has often given out knots (as late as last year) without people fulfilling many of the requirements. For example: all the leader knots require attendance at roundtables. But no one goes. Yet they get the knot (our Council does not do Pow Wows, etc).

 

My question is, does anyone care if we give out these knots even if all the requirements are not met? As an Eagle Scout and someone who was always taught to follow the rules, this has caused me more angst than anything else I have had to do as Cubmaster. I want to follow the traditions of the Pack, but not at the expense of the tenets of Boy Scouts. I would be furious if someone wore an Eagle knot and never earned it. I know the training knots are not the equivalent of an achievement knot, but I'm not sure what to do.

 

I emailed my commissioner and got a a confused and evasive answer. So I wonder, does the Council just not care about the knot requirements? Is it an unspoken rule? Is there even any record of these knots or am I making too big a deal out of it? Should I just not worry about it? But then I think about the Eagle knot and the Heroism Award and all those other knots and think, "how can there be a double standard"? If the Council does not care about the training knots, what is to stop anyone from slapping any knot on their chest?

 

I brought this up at a Pack leader meeting and my concerns were met with silence. After I explained the full extent of the issue, my concerns were met by ribbing. I seem to be taking this more seriously than anyone else- admittedly, I am the only one who spent his teenage years in scouting and the OA...

 

Any insight would be appreciated.

 

I feel the best compromise is to give the knots out this year but make it perfectly clear in the future that no knots will be given out unless the requirements are met and that this stipulation will be made at the beginning of every year. Frankly, until I joined the pack, no one but the previous Cubmaster and the cub scouts even wore a uniform. No one really seems to care about the knots but I'm trying to tread carefully.

 

 

[dg98adams]

No, I think by "giving in" you are just as lax as the last guy. I would not follow a bad tradition.

 

You got a couple choices:

 

1 - Make it known, if a Scouter feels they have EARNED (stress EARNED) a knot, then they need to track their own progress and fill out the knot dates/requirement boxes accordingly. It's possible they have never seen the progress card used. There is a simple PDF form for them... hand them out. Let it be known you will have the Comm. Chair or Advancement Person collect and process the knot cards. Scouts are Trustworthy, so it's "On your Honor". And leave it at that. If Council take's 'em hand 'em out.

 

2 - Let the CC know you are delegating all knot award processing/awarding to them.

 

3 - Step aside from the knot awards...

 

In my personal experience, I UC for a Pack who only the CM had any knots... I followed up on the active leadership and discovered no leader paper work ever followed up as the was gonna the outgoing WDL. She had done all the positions form TL to CC, but never registered beyond CC except when I came on board and got her re-registered as the WDL. She balked when I mentioned she did not qualify for the TL/DL/WDL knots she had asked about since she was never officially registered as that position... I had the council record and showed the Committee... she was not alone only 1 of the 5 would qualify for a knot..

 

Couple weeks later I saw her at the Scout office buying all the knots for her Troop uniform... she wears 'em too. I guess she felt she deserved them, but the troop she went into had some long term Scouters that I think she wanted to show them off to.

 

 

 

The CM is not the ONLY person who can sign a card, which the council must have to get the knot anyway.

 

http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/34169-54.pdf

 

(This message has been edited by dg98adams)

[Pack212Scouter]

I'll tell you what we ran into...and it may not apply to your situation. Our Council always holds roundtables on our meeting nights. Even though we have asked them to alter it occasionally, they don't. Our Charter org requires us to meet on that night as well, no other. After discussion with Council, it was decided that if the Leader attended any other training it would be acceptable (such as University of Scouting, BALOO, Woodbadge, etc.)

[DLChris71]

You know...to tell the truth this is why I quit scouting as a kid. Everyone cheating.

 

Now I was encouraged to pursue the Den Leader Knot, and I am. My CC and CM both said I should be awarded the knot in September, even though I didn't start until November. So I have no intention of turning in my paperwork on it until December 2012, and only if the requirements are met.

 

The purpose of the Den Leader Awards is to encourage den leaders to meet a minimum standard of training and performance, not to impress other scouters, but to encourage them to do the right thing. If the system of a Pack is to award these knots for simply being a warm body that shows up for Den meetings then it's a failure.

 

On another note I took all the required training and bought the trained tab myself, because I met the requirements to be trained and didn't feel like having to take weeks for someone to rubber stamp it and make my uniform complete. So that is if I earn it I want it.

 

I'm going to BALOO, IOLS, and eventually WB. Even if I do that still doesn't qualify me for the Den Leader Knot, because it depends on being good to the boys in my den and keeping them interested in a good program also.

 

So I'm sorry to hear that you are saddled with a bunch of slackers. I wouldn't sign off on it.

[Papadaddy]

At my council-run Scout Shop, the knots are on the shelf for anyone to purchase without proof of earning them. At the next Leaders' Meeting, i would simply make the statement that "if any of you has a need to wear knots you haven't earned, go buy them yourself, as I will no longer do it for you." Stand by your principles. This is not a CM function anyway...turn it over to the Committee. In our Council, the training knots, when properly approved, come with a Certificate signed by the Scout Executive, after having been verified by the Council Training Chair. Are they just passing out knots without certificates?

[chaoman45]

Set a good example for those you teach. That's all I'll say.

[ZScout5]

Our council has the districts hand out a knot with certificate at roundtable.

At the council store, trained patches and knots are behind the counter and the required training or award must be in scoutnet in order to purchase the patch or knot.

Units may announce that a leader has earned an award, but it is not their place to purchase and hand out the awards. District must sign off and approve the award, have it entered into scoutnet, and usually purchase and hand out the award.(This message has been edited by ZScout5)

[Second Class]

IMHO is is the responsibility of the Committee Chairman, with slight assistance of the Cubmaster or Scoutmaster, to track knots. Individuals should track their own progress, and CC's should encourage them to meet the requirements and turn in for them.

It is a joint process, in my mind.

 

Awarding knots for tenure, as stated here, is curious. What point of the Scout law does this reflect? Make it known what the "NEW" requirements are, encourage leaders to meet those requirements, and follow through.

[JoeBob]

I'm on both side of this issue.

 

As CM; I want to get my DLs, ASMs, multi-year Popcorn-Kernel, and Treasurer recognition for the hours that they volunteer.

a- Having awards to wear on the uniform encourages uniform wear.

b- Being recognized for hard work motivates more hard work, and helps to get your spouse to back off!

c- Sets a good example for the boys.

d- Helps with recruiting new volunteers.

 

So I'm motivated to make it easy to get these folks qualified.

But I'm also a stickler for doing it right. Either you qualify or you don't, right?

But the qualifications keep moving.

Some sources say 4 RTs, some say 3. Some Roundtables aren't fit to attend. How do you convince a volunteer leader that you appreciate his time by requiring him to waste 8 more hours of that time listening to announcements and presentations that have almost no bearing on his work? (Warning your DLs that RT is really just a captive audience for ManScouters to pontificate to, doesn't really justify their pain.)

QU went away. Are we supposed to accept JTE instead?

 

If the underlying intent of offering knots to adults is to get more and better leaders in your organization, then control of the 'knot standard' should be focused in the hands of the unit. The unit is in a position to know what service the adult has rendered.

 

If the purpose of offering adult knots is to bribe attendance at questionable district programs for extended indoctrination, eh; you can keep 'em.

 

If adult knots are a tightly controled measure of advancement for ManScouters... I thought we weren't doing that?

[SwampYankee]

I went to my first roundtable two weeks ago and that is where I learned of the knot requirements- they had all the requirements laid out on a table and someone did say something about giving out leader awards at an end-of-year dinner? At the time I did not make the connection between knots as "awards". I do know that the pack has been giving out the knots without any Council certificate.

 

I think putting the council in-between me and the knot process may be a solution. I'l talk to the Council staff and confirm that this is a process they manage (it appears that it may be- or is supposed to be) and then I can put it in the Chairperson's lap, indicating that we just don't have the authority to give these out. If people are interested, they or the chair can manage their progress and when they fill out the form, I will sign it to be sent up the chain.

 

One of the comments I got from our last CM was that the council was a mess. He was always having problems getting answers or assistance from them. I have now been to TWO in-person training sessions and frankly, I got very little out of them. The roundtables do seem a bit better. The Council had a Pow-wow two years ago and the previous CM said it was fantastic. They have no plans to do another. I wonder if the previous CM even knew what the knot process entailed?

 

Thanks for the advice, I hope it will save me some grief!

[Fehler]

My Pack gives out Service Stars to registered scouters (and thank you notes to the non-registered people that helped a bunch, like our Popcorn Chair). In my annual "leader orientation" packet, where I go over the required training for new/returning leaders, I include the applications for the knots.

[Twocubdad]

I think you've said your piece and the response from the leaders was telling. Now drop it. No good is going to come if you turn into the pack nag on the issue. These folks are adults and can make their own decisions as to what is right or wrong.

 

Continue to provide the tracking sheets, especially to the new volunteers, and let them know when Roundtable is scheduled. If this part of the pack culture is going to change, it will be slowly as the new folks come on board. If anyone legitimately earns an award, make a big deal of presenting it. But you absolutely do not have to participate in awarding any unearned knots.

[Brewmeister]

My question is, does anyone care if we give out these knots even if all the requirements are not met?

 

I do!

[Papadaddy]

Just to expound on what Fehler said, service stars are not an "award", IMHO. They simply indicate years of registered tenure in the BSA ("registered", not "active"). Since they are an added expense to the unit, most adults I know just keep track of their own tenure and purchase the appropriate star...if they wear them at all.

 

As to the varying requirements, there are several versions of the progress tracking cards for knots out there on the internet. In my experience, the District Training committee is the ultimate arbiter of what they will accept. If they sign the card and issue a certificate, the knot is earned. For most knots, a CC signature is also required, but he/she is not the ultimate approval authority.

[Eamonn]

As a rule I'm very much an old Book Thumper when it comes to requirements and having them met.

I think you need to have an informal chat with the District Training Chair. He or she should be able to point you in the right direction.

My own feelings?

I don't have the requirements in front of me.

In the area where I live a lot if not most of the Den Leaders are female. (Yes I know that I walking on thin ice!). In my book how the do what they manage to do? Is really remarkable. - Finding the time to look after a family and add to all that do everything that is needed to be a Den Leader. -Wow, my hat is off to them.

So on the one hand I'm faced with the requirements and on the other someone who has taken the training's and done an outstanding job.

Maybe, just maybe if Pow Wows were available they might have gone?

It isn't their fault that the Council doesn't offer these.

Maybe if they weren't busy parents there might be time on top of the Den meetings, Leaders meetings, pack meetings, PTO meetings, soccer, ballet, church meetings and all the other meetings there might be more time to attend the Round Table?

How good are the R/T meetings?

I've attended some that no one would want to miss, while I've also attended some that seemed to be more about FOS and popcorn sales than anything else.

Not anything that I'd want to rush home for and feed the kids pizza.

 

Some District /Council Training Chairs are big on requirements, sticking to the letter of the law.

I have served as both a District and Council Training Chair and I didn't

If someone had taken the needed trainings had the needed tenure I was OK with it.

Maybe in part because I as Council Training chair was the person responsible for discontinuing Pow Wows!

R/T meetings? Are of course run by the Commissioner staff who I'm sure try and find a night that's good for everyone, but in my opinion for parents of Cub Scout aged kids no night is a good night. I was happy if every Pack was represented.

So I'd be willing to go ahead and give them the knot. Heck if all it takes is a knot to keep some one happy? Why not.

Eamonn.