I have an issue with wearing the James West Knot - Me that is.

[Bambi2212]

From what I understand, several units and OA lodges "buy" the award in someones honor, and treat it as an award in that respect, which I think is pretty cool.

[BadenP]

Scouter

 

The knots a scouter earns by performing tasks within scouting helping the youth are one thing, the knots given for throwing money at council are quite another. It really is a no brainer which should be on the uniform. Still the BSA says you can wear all knots on your uniform, so it comes down to are you proud of what you did to earn that knot or is it just a gimmee. In my own experience many of those scouters with rows and rows of knots on their uniforms and looking like little generals, more than half those knots were BOUGHT not EARNED.

 

Be proud of what you do to help youth in the BSA and the recognition you get back in return. Beware of those recognitions received by only writing a check, and then wearing them on your uniform. Try explaining to a scout who asks you what some knots were for that he sees on your uniform and you know they were given to you for writing a check, what would you say? IMo it is rather a simple decision as to what and what does not belong on your uniform.

[BDPT00]

Wait a minute. You're throwing out a 'fact' here that needs to be backed up. People ask legitimate questions about square knots, and rumors don't help. If these little generals have purchased 'more than half' of their 'rows and rows' of knots, I'd like to hear what those knots are. To me, 'rows and rows' of knots means at least 4 rows. That would mean that 'more than half' would be at least 7:

 

#1) James E West

#2 ?

#3)?

#4)?

#5)?

#6)?

#7)?

 

I'll wait here.

BDPT00

 

[dkurtenbach]

"Hey, Mr. K, what is that knot for?"

"That's the James E. West Fellowship knot. That's for donating money to the council endowment fund."

"How much money?"

"Well, for the James E. West Fellowship, at least a thousand dollars."

"Are you crazy, Mr. K? You bought a knot for a thousand dollars? Do you know what you can do with a thousand dollars?"

"I'm crazy enough to be hanging out with Scouts like you. Do YOU know what a thousand dollars in the council endowment fund can do?"

"What's an endowment fund?"

"It's a permanent pool of money that sits there and earns interest, and the council can then spend the interest on Scouting programs, like camperships for kids who can't afford summer camp, and making sure your brother's Eagle Scout application is processed, and getting toilet paper for your favorite latrine at Camp Olmsted."

"Booooorrrrrrinnnnnngggg. You could use that money for Sea Base."

"Yeah, I could. But then I'd be spending it on me. What I wanted to do was to say 'thank you' to Scouting for everything it has done for me and my kids. And that money will say 'thank you' for as long as the council is around. My gift will be buying toilet paper for your grandkids."

"Buying toilet paper isn't worth a knot. Mr. G got his knot at the last Court of Honor for going on campouts and working with us Scouts."

"And other things that he did behind the scenes, like going to training. His knot is well-deserved. I've got that same one, here. And these other knots on my shirt are like that -- for working with Scouts. Now, the money I gave will make it possible for other people to be working with Scouts every day for, well, forever."

"But YOU didn't do any work for that knot. You just wrote a check."

"You've been out in the woods enough to know that money doesn't grow on trees. Where do you think the money comes from? I got it working at my job. I earned it. How did you pay for the canoe trip?"

"With the money I earned from the troop mulch sale, and babysitting."

"So, you worked so that you could earn money so you could do Scouting. I worked so that I could earn money so that you and other kids like you could do Scouting. What's the difference?"

"I didn't get a knot."

"You've never been able to 'get' a knot for more than ten minutes."

"That hurts, Mr. K."

"These other knots are for helping Scouts do Scouting in the past. This knot is for helping Scouts do Scouting in the future, even when I'm not here to do it myself. I bought a knot for a thousand dollars so I could keep doing Scouting long after I'm dead."

[BadenP]

dkurt

 

I see you haven drunken the kool-aid and become a believer, more than likely those funds will go for some kind of SE's pet project disguised as some sort of legacy endeavor.

[dkurtenbach]

Well, at least if my thousand bucks is in the endowment fund, only the interest (a mere pittance) is available to be misused each year. But since I can see that at least some council money is going to program (maintenance and improvements at our camps, campership money for kids in my troop, our helpful and knowledgeable DE's salary (a mere pittance), etc.), I think it is a safe assumption that at least some of the income from the gift given in my name to the endowment fund is going somewhere worthwhile. Kool-Aid? Nah. More like Mountain Dew -- it tickles my innards.

 

Dan Kurtenbach

Fairfax, VA

[Jay K]

If you're qualified to wear a knot, wear it. Would a four star general wear a major's oak leaves? Or, only 3 stars? You only get to wear knots by qualifying for them.

Hardly anybody recognizes the West knot anyway.

[BartHumphries]

All of the adult knots have static requirements but represent those things that you "should be doing anyway". For instance, the basic Assistant Scoutmaster/Scoutmaster knot -- be around for two years, complete basic training, complete Youth Protection, do a few other things which might include attending roundtables, etc. After you earn the knot, if you have that position, you should continue to do those things.

 

I think the same would be true for the James West Knot, especially since a person is always "in that position". If you're going to wear it, then you should continue doing the requirements for it, continue donating. If it was just a one-time "I bought this knot 20 years ago" then, yeah, it's really not a great knot. If it's, "I have a history of putting my money where my mouth is and supporting Scouting with my time and also financially" then it's a great knot.

[BDPT00]

the basic Assistant Scoutmaster/Scoutmaster knot

*** What's that?

 

I think a person should wear or not wear whatever knot entitled for whatever is their own personal reason. Whether or why you may chose to wear a particular knot is not my affair. If worn improperly, that's a different matter ... but wear it or not, that's your business.

BDPT00

[BartHumphries]

BDPT00, the Scout Leader's Training Knot: http://www.boyscouttrail.com/square-knots.asp#scouter Be an adult leader for two years and complete all your basic training.

 

Then do five things from the big list, most of which you're already going to be doing as an adult leader, like actively participate in the Courts of Honor (set it up, decorate, work with the Scouts to get the flag ceremony right, etc.), participate/support your troops fundraiser, "participate in a support role" for five overnight campouts, etc.

 

Adult knot requirements are guides to the sorts of things that you should be doing "in your position" and if a person is wearing the James West Fellowship knot, then they should continue to donate if possible. It shouldn't, in my opinion, be a one-time "purchase". I'm not saying that it should be like the Quality Unit patch or something, but adult knots are rewarded for things that you're usually supposed to continue doing for as long as your in whatever position you were in to earn the knot in the first place, in my opinion.

[BDPT00]

Scouter's Training Award can be earned by a lot of people. I thought maybe you were referring to the SM Key. Just wanted to make sure.

I have no argument with your theory regarding wearing the James E West knot. It's a good one, but your theory has nothing to do with me or my knots. I have my own reasons for wearing (or not) the knots I choose to wear.

BDPT00

[jdsmerud]

I say wear the West knot, it may provoke questions and rolled eyes on occasion, but in the long run it raises awareness of this particular program and will put more money in the endowment fund over time. Which in turn will deliver better support and in turn better program to the boys. National knew what they were doing with this knot, some will buy it outright, others will use it as a way to honor present or past Scouter's, but in the end more money in Council endowment funds means more interest (money) that can be spent on program, camp improvements, etc.

 

As for the other knots, if you earned them and hold a position that puts you into contact with new Scouters (like the District Committee and the like) wear them. They motive some new Scouters through the first year or so and the progress report worksheets can serve almost as a guide of what to get done. If you wear your training knots your pushing training. At the Troop level, its on the individual, but SM's should wear their youth knots. I've had many boys contact their church and set up classes, so they can get the little purple and silver knot their SM has before they turn 18.