World Crest Patch not required - per insignia guide. Correct????

[ScoutBox]

I saw a bad sewing job on the NE6 region OA Conclave staff pictures.. anyway, I think that it is clear. Center the pocket and the shoulder seam. This will also limit the number of knots one should wear. If the color hides the patch then so be it. I have to explain to every parent a hundred times that there is a uniform measurement and placement guide in the covers of the Scout Handbook. And of course the only patch missing is the WOSM patch. So I just tell them to sew it center the shoulder and the top of the pocket. If an adult limits his collection of knots to 5, then the position of the WOSM Emblem should be fine.

[eaglescout1996]

Like '92, I earned mine as a Scout. Actually, it was in July of 1989, a week before everyone was allowed to wear it. I still have the card I recieved from my council.

 

Does anyone remember the old insignia guide/inside of the BS handbook that showed the WC was supposed to be 3" below the shoulder seam? I vividly remember that, but I guess it was changed to reflect adults with a ton of knots.

[emb021]

"This will also limit the number of knots one should wear."

 

Only if you have a LOT of knots. I have 2 rows. There is still plenty of room on my XL shirt between the knots I have and the World Crest.

 

"I have to explain to every parent a hundred times that there is a uniform measurement and placement guide in the covers of the Scout Handbook. And of course the only patch missing is the WOSM patch."

 

No, it's there. Just shown too close to the pocket.

 

"So I just tell them to sew it center the shoulder and the top of the pocket."

 

What I do is take a straight edge lined along with center of the pocket, then find the center between the shoulder and the top of the pocket. No problem.

 

"If an adult limits his collection of knots to 5, then the position of the WOSM Emblem should be fine."

 

Again, baloney. I have 5, and still have room for probably 2 more rows before I hit the World Crest.

 

[Eagle92]

1996,

 

Yep I remember the 3" rule and I have one shirt that still has it in that spot.

 

EMB,

 

While ADULT size shirts may not be a problem, you forget about the YOUTH size shirts.

 

As y'all know, I am a "uniform policeman" having come from a unit with a stong uniform culture, working for national, and being asked to do uniform inspections. Plus you gotta read my posts in the "...You Might be a Uniform Policeman." thread.

 

Anyway when I sewed on my son's WC, as well as his Centennial Ring, the amount of space does NOT allow me to sew on his religious award knot. Luckily he will be a Webelos in June and getting a new shirt, and it looks as if the WC will NOT be in the correct spot centered 1/2 way between the top of the pocket and seam, but about 1/4-1/2 inch higher to accomidate the knot.

 

BOX,

 

I have to agree with Emb in regards to my XL shirt as well. My WC is Exactly 1/2 way between the pocket and shoulder seam, and I have room for the row of knots I now have to sew on, and another row, for a total of 4 rows, or 12 knots.

 

But as I mentioned above, my son has no room for his religious knot currently.

 

Also if I don't wear a necker, and I very rarely do not wear one, the the WC is coverd up by the collar.

 

 

 

[fred8033]

Ya know...

 

I can understand the world crest being required. I can also understand that as scouts we should just wear it. Heck, why not wear it?

 

BUT ... if the key rule document available to us says "may", then it's not really required. It's up to BSA to get the documents right. I believe that inconsistent documents goes in favor of the impacted person. So I'd give the scout the benefit of the doubt and congratulate him (not the parent) on reading the rules.

 

Then, I'd buy him a patch and offer to help him sew it on his shirt.

[emb021]

"While ADULT size shirts may not be a problem, you forget about the YOUTH size shirts. "

 

Wasn't talking about youth shirts, just adults. Few youth will have more then 2-3 knots.

 

"Anyway when I sewed on my son's WC, as well as his Centennial Ring, the amount of space does NOT allow me to sew on his religious award knot."

 

My view is that now that the centennial is OVER, people should stop wearing the centennial ring. If they have one on, so be it, but don't be adding them on. I actually decided NOT to wear one.

 

Anniversary items like the centennial ring traditionally are ONLY worn during the anniversary year, then removed. But few people realize that, much less follow it.

 

But that's the problem with most people in the BSA. Once they put something on their uniform, they are loath to remove it, even when they should. (example: the wearing of the commissioner arrowhead awards by now non-commissioners)

 

[ScoutBox]

@emb021: I am at this second looking in the new Scout Handbook and the WOSM isn't on the picture. The service star is the at the top. To confirm this is the new scout hand book with the wire binding. I too am an XL, and wear XL size shirts. I can say that someone smaller may not be able to fit more then a couple of rows of knots under the WOSM, and it look good. OR better yet still fit middle to the pocket and shoulder seam. I did the measurements myself and know that more can fit, in fact even more can fit on a size XXL or 3XL shirt. But not everyone wears those sizes. So I am using a Small/ Medium size shirt for my remarks. I know several people who are smaller sizes with loads of knots, and have the WOSM almost touching the shoulder seam. Then add that Centinnial Loop around the WOSM??? Anyway, here's the link to the picture of the Conclave Staff with the bad sew job. http://www.ne6a.org/

 

 

 

 

[Eagle92]

Emb,

 

My bad, I misread your statement.

 

Also in regards to the centennial, as well as the jambo rings, one of the problems is that no OFFICIAL, and I stress official, word has come out on it. And trust me I've asked. I know Black Eagle says it could only be worn from Aug 2009- July 2011 I believe, but SCOUTSTUFF folks on FB said that it can be worn forever, including by Sea Scouts ( yes I asked about them too).

 

Don't know about you and others, but national's communications with the folks in the field has been pretty shabby lately IMHO. As well as amongst themselves. Best example I can give of that is the National training folks A) making everyone retake basic training in order to be considered "trained" and for JTE purposes, which was later rescinded, and B) Training folks not realizing that there are 2 different trained strips: a green and tan for BS leaders, and a red and tan for CS and Venturing leaders. No idea which color commissioners are suppose to wear. They were saying it didn't matter which color you used, and I asked if that's the case with unit numbers as well since the IG states red for CS, green for BS.

 

Also has anyone else noticed the wrong info, quotes, and lack of info in the new BSHB?

[desertrat77]

As much as I appreciate the worldwide spirit of scouting, I think the world crest patch itself is an unnecessary gee gaw. In a similar opinion, the popularity of the centennial ring is a mystery to me. That said, no doubt I am in the minority on this!

[Eagle92]

Rat,

 

Respectfully disagree about the WC being a gee gaw. I think if people understood what it means as their is A LOT, and I do mean A LOT of symbolism in the badge. Plus it is one badge where, no matter where in the world you go, That is one badge we all have in common.

 

Plus for me it's something that I earned back in the day.

 

Now the centennial ring I'm with you on. I'd like to knwo who's crazy idea it was. That idiotic decision is on par with having special jambo shoulder loops,and changing the unit number colors IMHO. Problem is, My shirt has been worn so much with it on, I bet it the material underneath it is darker than the rest of the shirt.

 

Thankfully I only got 1 ring on any of my uniforms.

[ScoutBox]

The WOSM Emblem is one of those badges that places us in the World Scouting Organization. This is the common Badge that every scout in the world associated with. If the Unit is part of WOSM then they were that Badge somewhere on their uniform. But never in the same place. We wear it where we do, many wear it on the left pocket, loads also wear it on the sleeve or the right pocket or just above. But we all wear it. Wood Badge Beads is the only other emblem that is the same throughout WOSM. Over hear I have meet loads of Scouters who've earned their Beads in other countries. Swiss, Austrian, English..

 

Again as for wearing the WOSM Emblem. I think the ring, shows that were have been part of WOSM for 100 years now. So I can understand why someone came up with the ring. Doesn't look bad, and I can also understand, that if someone is wearing it then they are showing that we celebrate being a part of WOSM for over 100 years. But yea, there have been too many thinks made up, and it will not end. There are always those who love this stuff. If you don't then don't wear it.. simple. It's like the WOSM Emblem I've seen with WOod Badge beads on it.. OTT!

 

 

[emb021]

"Now the centennial ring I'm with you on. I'd like to knwo who's crazy idea it was. That idiotic decision is on par with having special jambo shoulder loops,and changing the unit number colors IMHO. Problem is, My shirt has been worn so much with it on, I bet it the material underneath it is darker than the rest of the shirt."

 

Have to agree.

 

I thought the centennial ring was stupid. Then they did a similar ring for the WJ (or was it an arc? I can't recall). There would have been a time when I would have gotten one for all my uniforms. Instead, I put it on none.

 

And the Jambo shoulder loops are also stupid. And since it used the boy scout loop colors, really the only people who should be wearing them are those in Boy Scout Troops. Not district/council scouters, etc.

 

Yesh.

 

I wear a Jamboree patch to show I went to a jamboree. I'm ok with JSPs. But I don't need rings around the World Crest or special loops to indicate I went as well.

 

The silliness with the unit numbers is a whole other matter...

[Eagle92]

And the Jambo shoulder loops are also stupid. And since it used the boy scout loop colors, really the only people who should be wearing them are those in Boy Scout Troops. Not district/council scouters, etc.

 

Tell that to the council pros I knowwearing 'em.

 

 

[Eagle92]

For whatever reason I just noticed this:

 

BUT ... if the key rule document available to us says "may", then it's not really required. It's up to BSA to get the documents right. I believe that inconsistent documents goes in favor of the impacted person. So I'd give the scout the benefit of the doubt and congratulate him (not the parent) on reading the rules.

 

You hit the nail on the head, there are two rule documents in play here, and they contradict each other.

You have the Uniform Inspection Sheet, which was probably onsite and used for the inspection which states:

 

The World Crest emblem is (emphasis mine) worn centered horizontally over the left pocket and vertically between the left shoulder seam and the top of the pocket.

 

http://www.scoutstuff.org/media/content/docs/pdfs/34283.pdf

 

And then the Insignia Guide here http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/Media/InsigniaGuide/06.aspx

 

shows the WC incorrectly, but does tell you exactly wear to wear it here with teh following verbage http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/Media/InsigniaGuide/10J.aspx

 

World Crest, cloth, No. 00143, all Scouts and leaders, centered horizontally over left pocket and vertically between left shoulder seam and top of pocket. May (emphasis mine) be worn by all members of Scouting to symbolize their membership in the World Scouting movement.

 

Now unless you have an "anal retentive uniform policeman" as I have been called on one website who carries an IG, even an outdated one like the one online is ( the last IG came out in April 2009 and has the Cenntennial uniform info in it, the online version is 2005 or there abouts), to a uniform inspection to clarify questions, the inspector will be doing the scoring based upon the inspection sheet on hand. And the inspection sheet states the WC is needed.

 

And I hate to say it, but even national realized the importance of the internet media. That's why the printed version of the Guide to Safe Scouting states to check the website every quarter for updates to it. That's why the training folks have monthly or quarterly training updates AND their own facebook group. A lot of folks heard about the requirement for leaders to redo basic training everytime the name changes, and then the decision to make the call at the district training chair's discretion (and which training chair is going to say "NO, you need to redo basic training" to a 20+ year scouter) on facebook before it was ever printed inthe Guide to Training.

 

So I as much as a uniform policeman I am, I'd take Supply's current website over a printed document, especially one known to be out of date.

 

[BartHumphries]

Well, yeah, you aren't "required" to support the World Scouting movement. You "may" wear the patch. But do you really want to give the impression that you're "not" supporting the World Scouting movement, that you're metaphorically giving the finger to Scouts in the rest of the world. Just wear the patch.

 

We accept you, one of us. We accept you, one of us. Gooble gobble, gooble gobble.