What to do with semi-uniformed ASM

[OldGreyEagle]

Hey, my grandmother was Portuguese...

 

Just a thought, in what is supposed to be a uniformed organization, why is it that those who wear the uniform correctly and wear the knots they earned and are entitled to are prejudged to be in it for all sorts of reasons other than for the youth and program and those who do not wear the uniform as prescribed often are regarded as having noble reasons for their behavior?

 

I can accept that the lack of a complete uniform does not indicate a poor leader, why is it that a complete uniform seems to engender feelings of "somethings wrong with this guy"?

 

How about getitng to know the person and not the uniform?

 

 

[Tampa Turtle]

So was my Grandmother....cousin! Miss her Malasadas.

 

Yeah I say get to know the guys. Folks got their reasons. Need all kinds to make a Troop go, from adept paper pushers to outdoorsy types.

[dennis99ss]

i am now going to have to look up what a admiral in the Portuguese tradition looks like........

 

I don't mind the knots, etc. What i am referring to is the hiking medals earned 40 years ago, trying to plan hikes where there is a medal so you can put one on yourself, etc.

 

I know it is wrong to judge the book by its cover, but, come on, one more medal and you are gonna need back surgery! bwahahaha

[acco40]

OGE - I feel your pain. Yes, I too have noticed a prevailing opinion among many that those adults who strive to wear the uniform properly are all in the BSA for self aggrandizement only.

 

Keep in mind that the world has always been populated a few small minded folks whose only real purpose in life seems to be to try and knock down others that they feel inferior too.

[camilam42]

I'm coming into the conversation pretty late, I apologize for that, but I do have a couple of views.

 

First, I will offer the following caveat, I've not read through the entire thread, so I may be re-hashing something already settled, if so, I apologize, but...my point of view:

 

The BSA is a uniformed organization. If one is going to participate in the organization, he should do what the organization asks of him. If that means he should be uniformed, then he should be uniformed. If that means that he should not be, then he should not be. However, that is not the case with the BSA. The BSA has a uniform in place. There are regs as to when the uniform is appropriate, there are times when it is not. There are times when a modified uniform can be worn, and there are time when they cannot be worn.

 

If one is an adult leader, he should make the investment in the uniform. After all the BSA is a uniformed organization. While there are circumstances in which a given leader may not be able to afford a uniform, but wants to participate, I would suggest that he approach the Scoutmaster (I'll use BSA lingo, but this applies to all areas) or Committee Chair and make his problem about uniforming known. I have never heard of a troop not helping a leader not obtain a uniform. If it is a matter of paying for it, I know several troops which have purchased the uniform and had the leader pay it back to the troop and/or provided it based upon a vote of the committee based upon need.

 

If the pants are such an issue, then perhaps he is not suited to being an adult leader. I know this sounds harsh, but in the long run, what example is he setting for the Scouts? If the BSA is a uniformed organization, shouldn't the expectation be to wear the uniform. What does the Scout/Scouter gain from "cherry picking" parts of the program he doesn't like? How is that being obedient?

 

I know there are more than a few who disagree and you're entitled to your opinions. I will not attempt to take that away, but the fact remains that the BSA has never waivered on this issue. Uniforming is as important as any other aspect of the organization, for a variety of reasons. Some may not like the reasoning, but if one is going to practice the Scout Law, then obedience is part of this. The last time I checked the precepts of the Law were not subjective, but rather objective. So, one is to be obedient to parents, communities, peers, leaders and the BSA. I also know some will say the expense is too much and how does that apply to thrify? As an example, I have spent an estimated total of $180.00 on two uniforms. That was two years ago. So, in that timeframe, I've spent a grand total of $0.25 a day on uniforming. That's pretty thrifty. And the uniforms are in great shape, because I rotate through them.

 

So, in my honest opinion, I see the excuse of money as being a very lame one. I also see the aversion to following the precepts of the organization as being a sign of poor leadership.

 

When I am in a Scout uniform, I am always completely uniformed, that means socks and belt. As I said, I find no reason not to be and I can honestly say that there is nothing more to my being uniformed than that of providing a proper example to the Scouts. That also means to be properly badged. So, while I don't adorn my uniform with anything undue, I do wear the patching which is appropriate to my role. I follow the unwritten rule, "if it's not good for the Scout, I won't do it." Being uniformed is good for the Scout, so I am uniformed, according to the BSA standard. And the expectation is that my Scouts will be as well. Because the expectation of the BSA is my expectation, the Scouts have no problem with it and they embrace it, fully.

 

So, getting back to the OP. Perhaps loaning him the money is necessary, from the troop. But have him pay it back. It is not that much of a financial burden.

[acco40]

There are times when a modified uniform can be worn, and there are time when they cannot be worn.

 

Please enlighten me when a modified uniform should be worn.

[qwazse]

If the pants are such an issue, then perhaps he is not suited to being an adult leader. I know this sounds harsh, but in the long run, what example is he setting for the Scouts? If the BSA is a uniformed organization, shouldn't the expectation be to wear the uniform. What does the Scout/Scouter gain from "cherry picking" parts of the program he doesn't like? How is that being obedient?

 

Just doesn't mesh with the facts on the ground. Some of the most caring adults -- truly the best for the kids, the ones who best assist the SM -- uniform poorly. Some of the most pompus windbags -- ones who are "my way or the highway, no I'm not camping away from my son, not HIM for my son's SPL" --- uniform immaculately. So we teach the boys (at least I teach my sons) that there's obedient and Obedient the lower case worries about every legal stripe that could be thrown our way, the upper case feels he owes it to you to keep you safe and always wants you to pursue a higher calling.

 

25 cents a day, that may be how much more it takes to get to work every year. $180: that may be two events a year that an adult has to pay to chaperon and transport. (Factor in the cost one should spend making sure the vehicle is ready for travel.) So I can see how in the grand scheme of things a pair of uni pants vs. some shoddy approximation is a reasonable trade-off. The person simply feels he is Obedient a higher ideal of scouting that self-appointed uniform police seem to ignore.

 

Again, a heart-to-heart about it over a campfire or coffee is more important than reading some chapter and verse on "BSA is this" or "BSA is that."

[camilam42]

@ acco40;

 

When speaking of a "modified uniform" I am speaking of the so-called activities uniform or the "class B."

 

While not mentioned in the insignia guide on the scouting website, a Council does have the leeway to approve them for use. Example: The Cubs in our local pack have Council approval to use an activities uniform when it is apparent that the uniform will become unduly abused or the potential for damage arises.

 

Again, if it's not good for the Scout, we won't do it. There are times when wearing the official uniform is not advantageous, but the need for uniformity always exists within the Scouting structure.

[Eagledad]

>>Again, a heart-to-heart about it over a campfire or coffee is more important than reading some chapter and verse on "BSA is this" or "BSA is that."

[SeattlePioneer]

>

 

 

You have once again explained why this is a perpetual and tiresome subject. It's easy to nitpick.

 

BSA provides an extensive list of responsibilities for every position --- I've never known anyone who did them all, or even close in most cases. So you could nitpick almost anyone of that basis or many others.

 

Uniforming offers the most obvious target for nitpickers.

 

The Scout oath also recommends being "helpful, friendly, courteous and kind," but these recommendations are frequently ignored when the nitpickers choose to indulge themselves.

[camilam42]

@ qwazse;

 

Obviously, there are times when one will come across a Scouter who is not in it for the Scout, so it becomes about him. And then they often times get into the uniforming, to the Nth degree. That isn't who I'm speaking about.

 

I'm speaking about the example given in the beginning. In my experience, I've found that those Scouters who follow the uniform method and are serious about it are better leaders. We do follow that method and we make sure we are able to impart the importance to each and every Scout AND Scouter. FYI, do the same thing with the patrol method.

 

We believe that these methods make for better Scouts. And because of that, we know that it is good for the Scouts. So, we hold this to be a very important part of our troop and pack. The parents are on board, because we have educated them on the issue and we are currently working to make compliance 100%.

 

There are couple of things we do to faciliate this:

 

1. We have a loan closet for uniforms. There are two options for the loan closet. The parents can loan out the uniforms of boys who have bridged out to boy scouts or have become inactive. In this scenario, we clear the badges off the shirts and they hang in a closet by size. The badges we clear go into a sectional tote and become available for use for those who are not able to pay. The same thing happens with pants and belts. The same thing happens with neckers and slides. The only thing we don't loan are socks. The second option is that parents can buy the shirts and pants from the loan closet, if they so choose. This becomes a fundraiser, with a piece of the monies going back to the orignial owner, so they are compensated (although we've only had one parent actually take the money offered through this). The monies raised from this (which is also minimal, btw) go directly to the camping fund, which either helps a Scout go to camp or it facilitates an annual pack camp out with no expense to the Scouts (As a matter of transparency, there is roughly $30 in that fund. Most all just borrow the shirts).

 

We do the same thing for boy scouts, although it is on a much smaller scale. Most boy scouts want to have new stuff, but the closet does exist for them too. Shirts are cleared and badges are kept (if the boy doesn't want to keep them). Pants are hung, although most pants are of the older style and have been retired (we keep them anyway and are gradually moving them to goodwill). We have belts and some of our troops neckers and there are a number of slides.

 

99% of our boy scouts don't utilize the closet though. Virtually all own their own uniforms, but there are a couple who have used the closet over time.

 

2. When a new Scouter comes on board, we do have a "coffee break" with him/her and explain the importance of the uniform method and the patrol method. We give them their expectation and to date, not one Scouter has not been willing to purchase a uniform.

 

While I certainly understand scenario you bring up regarding the poorly uniformed Scouter v. the immaculately uniformed Scouter, I have rarely seen it. Every time I have been involved and the uniform method has been explained, the Scouter comes on board. We do have a contingency for when that doesn't happen, but we've not had to use it, yet....thank goodness.

[camilam42]

@ SeattlePioneer;

 

I get what you're saying, but I have to agree with Eagledad.

 

I spoke about obedience. When one goes to an Eagle COH, obedience is spoken about referencing among other things, the BSA. The uniform is part of this. While it may be tiresome to talk about it, it wouldn't be IF everyone followed the uniform method.

 

As I've illustrated above, it really isn't tiresome for us, because we strongly encourage our Scouts and Scouters to buy into the uniform method.

 

"The uniform makes the Scout troop visible as a force for good and creates a positive youth image in the community. Boy Scouting is an action program, and wearing the uniform is an action that shows each Scout's commitment to the aims and purposes of Scouting. The uniform gives the Scout identity in a world brotherhood of youth who believe in the same ideals. The uniform is practical attire for Boy Scout activities and provides a way for Boy Scouts to wear the badges that show what they have accomplished." Aims and Methods of the Scouting Program

 

While it isn't expressly required, except for National Jamboree and for attaining the National Honor Patrol Award, it is a method which seriously supports the boy and creates an atmosphere and a camaraderie which is good for the Scout. Which brings me back to my undying philosophy, "If it's not good for the Scout we won't do it."

 

The uniform is good for the Scout. And if the Scouter is to be the first example for the Scout, He/She should be properly attired.

 

This is my view. I refuse to force it on another troop or pack, but the fact remains that it is good for the boy, so the expectation exists and is followed up on with the troop and pack I'm involved in.

[Eagledad]

>>Uniforming offers the most obvious target for nitpickers.

 

The Scout oath also recommends being "helpful, friendly, courteous and kind," but these recommendations are frequently ignored when the nitpickers choose to indulge themselves.

[SeattlePioneer]

I trust people are aware that uniforms are NOT REQUIRED for Scouting at all. An adult or youth who chooses not to wear a uniform is not violating any Scout rule.

 

Personally I wear a full uniform to all Scout activities. My struggling pack doesn't have a bulging uniform closet --- nor any uniform closet at all.

 

Frankly, I have things a LOT more important to do than nitpicking people about uniforms. I set an example myself, I supply a neckerchief and slide to new Scouts the same meeting they join as a way to encourage uniforming.

 

Uniform nitpickers sound spoiled to me. Just not much of an idea of the issues that confront a lot of Scout units.

 

I recall a Wood Badge participant who wore their hat with the brim reversed. The patrol gossiped about this for a few days, trying to decide what to "do" about it. In the end the correct decision was made: nothing. The sky didn't fall.

 

Frankly, any Scout Troop where the only uniforming issue is an adult not wearing pants sounds like a troop with an adult leadership problem that probably dwarfs uniform issues.

 

 

 

 

[camilam42]

@SeattlePioneer;

 

I will reiterate a point I made a little earlier:

 

"While it isn't expressly required, except for National Jamboree and for attaining the National Honor Patrol Award, it is a method which seriously supports the boy and creates an atmosphere and a camaraderie which is good for the Scout. Which brings me back to my undying philosophy, "If it's not good for the Scout we won't do it."

 

The uniform is good for the Scout. And if the Scouter is to be the first example for the Scout, He/She should be properly attired."

 

This isn't a matter of being a "uniform nazi" or being anything other than a supporter of the uniform method. It has been a tenant of Scouting from the beginning and it is a principle that Baden-Powell found to be important.

 

If one is going to support the uniform method, then he should support it. Frankly, I don't understand why it wouldn't be supported, as it is and has been part of Scouting since it's foundation.

 

The use of the uniform creates a sense of camaraderie, a sense of equality and a sense of pride by way of public expression of the badging they have earned and insignia to which they belong.

 

As I have said and I will continue to say unceasingly, "If it is good for Scout, then we will do it, if not we won't."

 

The uniform method is good for the Scout, therefore we will continue to do it, but we will not do it partially. We will give 100% commitment to it, because that shows the Scout the importance of following through and committing to something. This applies to the Scouter as well who is his first example.