What to do with semi-uniformed ASM

[Eagle92]

How about green jeans?

[Pack212Scouter]

If your PLC wants a fully uniformed troop (and in my opinion all should be), then the ASMs need to support this by leading by example. The one caveate that I always place here is that if it is going to be a requirement, then there needs to be a uniform closet for turnovers and a small budget for Scouts/Scouters in need.

[Tampa Turtle]

We have had exactly the same issue! Except he was an active Marine. he just did not want to wear anymore uniforms in his "off" time. Did everything else great. Ex-Life Scout. Would wear a scout-related T-shirt, though.

 

We let it slide. We had bigger issues with a Webelos III ASM with a perfectly tailored uniform that undermined all the other methods.

 

Eventually if all the other adults wear the uniform 90% of the other guys will fall in line.

[Papadaddy]

I'm with the Beav on this one. You need to ask yourself the same question as those contemplating divorce..."are we better off with him or without him"...because I agree, if you push the issue, he will probably disappear, with his kid. The reasons why are irrelevant.

[Jeffrey H]

"Any ideas on how to get him on board?"

Continue to uniform by example, but I recommend dropping the matter.  The BSA is not the military.  If he is truly a help to your Troop and supports it, then count that as a blessing.  You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make him drink it.  As one poster mentioned, "is this a hill to die on?"  As a unit leader myself, what is more important to me is the overall character of our co-leaders and the personal example they set before the young scouts. 

[qwazse]

Wow! A whole topic just about me!

 

(Except the ex-mil thing, and the $1000, and if it seems really important I have a pair of vintage BSA shorts and dark green hiking socks.)

 

Be up front with the guy. Say that his one shortcoming in your eyes is that he won't throw on a pair of trousers from National Supply. But if he persists you'll try to dig deep and bear it.

 

Your leadership is more likely to be undermined by some knot collector in complete field dress.

[KC9DDI]

I might go a little against the conventional wisdom here. The way I see it, your troop is perfectly justified in setting a standard for uniforming. And if an ASM is undermining that standard, you at the very least can and should have a conversation with him on the topic. No need to be confrontational, but just explain your position - and, most importantly, listen to his! The fact that this ASM is former military shouldn't really have any impact. If anything, the fact that he's former military may make him MORE of an example for your Scouts. "Why do I need to wear my uniform is Mr. Jones doesn't wear his?? He was a MARINE!"

 

This doesn't sound like an issue that you would want anyone leaving the troop over - but at the very least I think you're owed more of an explanation.

[Beavah]

"Why do I need to wear my uniform is Mr. Jones doesn't wear his?? He was a MARINE!"

 

More often than not, my experience has been that the adults in scoutin' who get most wound up about the uniform are the wannabes. The fellows who didn't actually serve.

 

So that might be a good lesson in itself for the adults and the boys, eh?

 

Clothing is a tool we use. It's not the goal. And kids are kids, eh? They're not active duty marines.

 

Let's not get 'em all mixed up.

 

Beavah

 

[shortridge]

Beavah,

 

Exactly, kids are kids. And as KC9DDI's post pointed out, they have an innate and often unswerving sense of fairness. If a youth asks Mr. Pantsless point-blank why he's not in full uniform, the answer ought to be very interesting. The Scouts aren't going to accept "Because."

 

But that said, it should be the youth driving the boat here. If the PLC doesn't care too much, the SM shouldn't waste a lot of breath on it, either. Now, if it's the CO's wish that all leaders wear complete uniforms, that's another issue entirely.

[KC9DDI]

Right Beav, I'm not mistaking a 12 year old Boy Scout for an active duty Marine. What I am saying is that problems can develop when a 12 year old Boy Scout observes an admired, respected role model such as a Marine ignoring a rule that he is being asked to follow. Shortridge explains it well.

 

True, uniforming is a tool and a method, but not a goal in and of itself. However, this troop has set a goal pertaining to their use of the uniforming method.

 

We encourage the youth leadership to set appropriate goals, correct? And we encourage and empower them to meet those goals, correct?

 

So, if there's a single adult who isn't buying into this goal, it's only reasonable to find out why. I'm not saying that the ASM in question is in the wrong at all - but it's important to have an open and honest (and private) conversation between the SM and this ASM.

 

It may turn out that the ASM will see the benefit of complying with the troop's uniform standard. Or maybe his position will cause the troop to re-evaluate the uniform standard they aim for. Or maybe nothing will change. But, at the very least, there's nothing wrong with having that conversation.

[SeattlePioneer]

Leave the guy ALONE!

[SR540Beaver]

My dad was a WWII vet Marine. I know a good number of Marines. I can't fathom a Marine not understanding the uniform method in scouting and not being willing to set the example.

[desertrat77]

Rest assured, a retired Marine officer can comprehend and articulate uniform philosophy. Probably better than most of us can.

 

Seattle is right--leave the guy alone. He's not some clueless newbie. He knows exactly what he is doing.

 

As for the "fairness" and "what will the kids think" crowd--I think you are off base on two points. One, the kids are alot more understanding that you think. As a boy, I had some crusty old scout leaders that had their peculiarities and eccentricities...we scouts just accepted them and pressed on. Rank/Age Has Its Privileges.

 

Two, I believe Beavah said it best--don't treat fellow adults like boys. Boys should not treat adults like their peers. This retired Marine isn't the boys' peer. The boys need to respect that. The adults need to respect the ASM too.

 

Lastly, I don't think the boys will get spun up about this. It will be the adults who have the "uniform itch" or "uniform jones" and love to see everyone all lined up in formation, in their spiffy Centennial uniforms. Trying to relive boot camp or recreate a boot camp they never attended.

 

A fixation/fascination/obssession on uniforming in a volunteer organization is a sign. Bigger issues are going by the wayside, or it shows control/conformity issues, or shallowness of goals, or all of the above.

 

PS As I approach retirement from the military, most of my peers fall into two categories when it comes to uniforms. One, it's a "101" issue, something you learn the second day of boot camp/ROTC/academy/OTS. Wear it right, and let's move on, we've got much bigger issues to deal with. Two, the opposite end of the spectrum, these guys need to run around the base/site/camp and yell "hey you" at every uniform violation seen, because if you can't trust a guy to wear his uniform right, you can't trust him in other things (so they think).

 

I'm squarely in group one. Group two, the uniform gurus, spends alot of time wringing their hands, worrying that the squadron is going to heck in a high speed handbasket because two dudes were seen wearing their stocking hats in the dining facility. In my experience, group two spends alot of time on other shiney objects, and less on substantive issues.(This message has been edited by desertrat77)

[OldGreyEagle]

I have always thought if myself as a charter member of the uniform police and if I had such am ASM who did not wear the complete uniform and some scout asked me why he had to wear the uniform and Mr Retired Marine Officer did not, my answer would be swift and to the point. I would say, "When you retire from the Marines as an Officier, I give you my word I will not bug you about how you wear your Boy Scout Uniform, until then, I promise I will bug you to wear it completley."

 

I am not sure where the concept came from that absolutely everybody, everwhere had to be treated exactly the same or nobody had to follow any rule. Life is not fair and the sooner we relaize it, the better we are off and if it takes reired Marine Officers to do it, all I can say is "Semper Fi"

[Venividi]

Program, Program, Program - boys are there for a fun, exciting, challenging program.

 

They know and accept a such a scout leader as a whole package, and if he is a great role model in the areas that count most, they will, as desert rat suggests, accept his idosyncracies. Similar to how boys know the scout leaders that smoke, even though per scout rules, they don't do it in front of the boys. Doesn't make them want to start smoking.