What to do with semi-uniformed ASM

[camilam42]

@ BadenP;

 

Are you reading the same thread? I'd like to see where I'm being "vicious" and "psychotic." I'm supporting a method and and getting raked pretty hard for it. I've been nothing, if not courteous and kind, yet I am the one who is personally attacked. I have not spoken about one single troop, other than my own. I have not said that I would impose my thoughts on any troop,including my own.

 

This is a discussion about uniforming and the uniform method. I've been called uncharitable, I've been called unkind, I've been called an elitist. My motives have continually been called into question and my leadership has been maligned. AND... I've been accused of being a BSA form of Nazi. Yet in your eyes, I'm the one who is being vicious and psychotic. Interesting.

 

In actuality, BadenP, if you go back and read my posts you'll see that I'm not judgmental. I have been supportive of a great number of posters on this thread. I have supported the methodology of the BSA in it's entirety. And I have used my troop and my experience as the basis for everything which I have stated.

 

I also have said several times that I have no claim to my opinion being supreme. I have said several times that if someone (actually, anyone) can give solid, factual proof as to why my opinion is wrong, then I will amend it. However, what do I get instead? I get told that I am vicious and that I am bordering on psychosis.

 

No, this isn't the end-all-be-all of the Scouting world. You're 100% right. But it is a thread about uniforming. It is a thread which for good or for bad lends itself to great emotional outburst. I've tried mightily not to express any emotion, but to ask for rational reasoning. And what I get is an ad hominem tu quoque attack.

 

Maybe this is how you operate, IDK. To be honest I don't really care, but the topic is uniforming and how do we get an ASM to buy into the uniforming method. I have offered several options and I have discussed the merits of the uniforming method. I fail to see how that is vicious or how that is psychotic. Regardless of your personal view of me, which, btw, I don't care about much either, because you have no idea who I am or what I'm about; my view on uniforming is balanced and it is clear.

 

Perhaps if I lay it out point by point you might get it a little clearer:

 

-- Uniforming is a method of Scouting

-- It is a method which my Scouts employ

-- The employment was amended into the bylaws by the Scouts

-- The Scouter is charged by the PLC to help enforce for Scouts and Scouters

-- The expectation is that the Scout and Scouter will both be in full uniform at all approved functions

-- Compliance is governed by the BSA

-- This is binding upon our Troop and Pack

 

My personal view is that since the uniform method is a valid way of presenting Scouting and is integral to the aims of Scouting, it should be afforded the same due diligence and same respect as the other 7 methods. Has my Troop taken steps to ensure that there is a way for every Cub and Boy Scout to be fully uniformed? Yes. Did it happen overnight? No. Are we 100% compliant? No. Do we strive for it? Yes. Are the Scouters 100% compliant? Yes. Why? Because they buy into the method. Does this mean that every Troop or Pack has to operate as we do? No. Have I ever said that? No. Should every Pack and Troop strive for that? In my view, yes. Because it is a method of Scouting. However, I do know that a good many Scouters will never buy into the uniforming method because of personal bias, past experience, or some other reason. And that's ok. It isn't my role to make sure that every Scout and Scouter, worldwide is uniformed. It is my role to make sure that my Troop is, because that is what my Troop wants.

 

If you don't like that, fine. If you do, fine. But please don't make assumptions you can't back up. It makes you look bad and I don't want that for you. I want to support you as a Scouter.

[BadenP]

camiliam

 

Psychotic and vindictive? Just read your prior posts directed at Beavah and then myself, if you can't see those traits in them then there is nothing more to say. For myself I have nothing more to say to you except, may the Great Scoutmaster watch over the youth in your troop.

 

Pax

[SeattlePioneer]

>

 

 

It MAY be that in real life you have a balanced view of Scouting. If so, it's not apparent from your posts.

 

 

Other people posting emphasize that uniforming is one of the eight methods in Boy Scouts. You are only able to talk about one in, which gives your posts a maniacal appearance.

 

An over emphasis on one method of Scouting is a weakness of some troops, such as troops that over emphasize advancement and are characterized as Eagle Mills.

 

While this has been explained to you many times, you appear unable to recognize such things. Maybe that is not the case, but it's the impression you give.

 

It's supported by your description of your troop program, which apparently also controls the pack program as well. To me, that STRONGLY describes an adult dominated program.

 

But as I've said earlier, Scouting accepts a wide variety of different kinds of Scouting programs. An adult dominated program has many advantages, since adults can typically organize with greater sophistication, continuity and power.

 

So as far as I'm concerned, you are welcome to your style of Scouting program, but it doesn't appeal to me.

 

 

 

 

 

(This message has been edited by seattlepioneer)

[camilam42]

@ BadenP;

 

Psychotic and vindictive? Just read your prior posts directed at Beavah and then myself, if you can't see those traits in them then there is nothing more to say. For myself I have nothing more to say to you except, may the Great Scoutmaster watch over the youth in your troop.

 

Pax

 

Ok, let us do that. A few exceprts. I will only respond to your posts though, not Beavah's.

 

You say to me at 3/13/2012: 12:20:38 PM: "Quoting BP to affirm your my way or the highway perspective smacks of elitism to me."

 

You then say to me at 3/14/2012: 11:01:37 AM: "So to you scout leaders who think your troop is somehow superior because they are fully uniformed and always love to point out at council and district events those units who are not in full uniform, IMHO are just being petty and vindictive and have forgotten what a scout leader truly is supposed to be. [...] Getting hung up over the uniform, quoting passages from a century ago, criticizing those not in full uniform is undignified, unscoutlike, and has NO place in scouting. [...] Methods of Scouting are guidelines to help develop your troop program they are NOT mandates from Mt. Sinai so get over yourselves already. We are here to serve the youth not to make some kind of fashion statement."

 

You say to me at 3/15/2012: 12:08:47 AM "You really need to cool off, have a drink or a valium and calm down. These are discussions not worldwide negoitiations deciding the fate of scouting. Your rude attacks on me and vicious attacks on Beavah in this thread have bordered on the psychotic."

 

Vindictive and psychotic. Hello, pot. I would like to introduce you to kettle. You have a color to discuss. And it ain't white, neither.

 

As for my responses to you, I said this to you at 3/14/2012: 5:09:51 PM, "You're right, abusing a method has no place in Scouting, but I think that your characterization is misapplied and wrong."

 

The only other place where I come close to being vindictive toward you is when I speak of having a lassiez faire mentality.

 

I'm not going to get into things about Beavah, with you. He's a big fellow. If he wants to discuss things he will. But before you start your character assassination, perhaps you should look at just who is being vindictive here. It isn't me.

[camilam42]

@ SeattlePioneer;

 

What is this thread about again? Uniforming. So, wouldn't it stand to reason that one would focus on uniforming on this thread? It would. Wouldn't it stand to reason that the other methods would be discussed in their own appropriate threads? On every other message board I've EVER been to, that is how it works. But perhaps it doesn't here. Perhaps here, we title a thread about uniforms then talk about ideals. If that's the case, then I just need to reevaluate how this board works and adapt.

 

So, please excuse me for focusing on uniforming in a uniforming thread. I can talk about the other 7 methods just fine, but in their proper place.

 

As for your description of my Troop, well, you're wrong. I'm speaking about it from my perspective, because I'm the one speaking about it. How else am I to talk about it? From the SPL's point of view? I don't know what's in his head. If you go back and read my posts, objectively, you'll see that I'm supporting the method, through examples of what my Troop does.

 

I am little more than a facilitator for my Troop. The Scouts do most of the work, they do most of the planning and they do all of the activities. We are there to support them and to be a positive adult influence on them. But I suspect that you don't believe that, because I am...what did you call it? Oh, yeah...maniacal. Thanks for that, btw. I appreciate the piling on of ad hominem attacks. That is really courteous and kind of you.

 

All of this hinges on the fact that there is a faction of posters here who are opposed to the uniforming method for whatever reason. I gave two of them and those posters will do anything, including personal attacks to get those who are supportive of the method to back down.

 

I'm not saying that my Troop is perfect. It isn't. There are certain things which we could do better, but our Adult Association method is very strong.

 

As for the Pack being run by the Boy Scouts, no. The Scoutmaster and the Cubmaster are best friends, so there is a lot of collaboration. Since we're in a small town (roughly 5000), they are the only Pack and the only Troop, so there is a strong connection. The Scouts move from one to the other and that really is the only option. The next closest Troop is 20 miles away.

 

I am sorry that you see me as maniacal. I can assure you I'm not. I'm very logical and reasonable. I try to keep emotion out of the way, but it does creep in from time to time, especially when I feel threatened. But that's only natural right?

 

 

[Beavah]

You are aggravated and have disrespect for the nitpicker type of leaders, but I respect them even in their misleadership because they really are trying to do the best they can with what little they know. Maybe a little respected guidance would help these adults get a little more realistic perspective.

 

Yah, lots of times, Eagledad. Folks grow at their own individual rates, and it does take some years for fellows to get beyond superficial application of the Methods to understand the deeper purpose in character-buildin'. Sometimes maybe they get it from an older scouter makin' a few observations. Sometimes maybe a lad or group of lads that they cared about teaches 'em the hard way by dropping out, or by bullying a younger lad who hasn't turned out in the proper clothing this week. Most often, the ones who are goin' to learn learn by being close to the boys and reflecting on the outcomes they see.

 

I think, though, in many ways adults are pretty set in their ways. The adults who don't listen well to kids, they don't usually improve that much over many years, eh? The limited amount of time we have in training isn't ever goin' to change attitudes and skills as deep as that, and a visiting commish is fairly easy to dismiss. Folks who invest their self-worth on the novice-level superficial things and biblical-like quotes from children's books don't often move past that on their own. Baden Powell had it right, IMHO, that the most practical thing for units to do is look for Scouters of the "right sort" who bring a set of skills and attitudes with 'em to the role. Those are the folks who over the course of a few years figure out how to use the BSA methods properly, but not because of training. It's because they come with attitudes of caring for young people, and the outdoors, and servant leadership.

 

The fellows who go in for the superficial stuff often do a lot of damage along the way, by teachin' the wrong lessons, or driving kids or good adult leaders away. Nobody worth a lick in youth work wants to spend time with folks who spend a big amount of energy worrying about other people's clothing. Honestly, I think that sort of stuff costs us far more members than the political/culture war issues. I reckon that's why leaders of the "right sort" get a bit frustrated by it from time to time. It's destroyed many a troop and district.

 

On forums like this one, I don't reckon the participants are goin' to change their minds, eh? Though yeh can always hope that a seed will be watered and germinate down the road a ways. But the audience is much larger than the participants, and in those folks both the seeds and the weeds have a good chance of finding fertile soil. For that reason, poor practice is worth respondin' to a bit, lest some other well-intentioned folks walk away with the wrong lesson just because that was the only perspective which got voiced.

 

Debates between folks of good will aren't a bad thing, and they allow others to see the character and the issues in new light, so as to make their own decisions.

 

Beavah

[SeattlePioneer]

>

 

 

Umm. I haven't seen anyone post on this thread that they are in any way opposed to uniforming as a method of Scouting, let alone a "faction."

 

It's a question of how you use the uniforming method in your unit. I've described how I do that several times in this thread, with widely variable results.

[camilam42]

@SeattlePioneer;

 

Umm. I haven't seen anyone post on this thread that they are in any way opposed to uniforming as a method of Scouting, let alone a "faction."

 

It's a question of how you use the uniforming method in your unit. I've described how I do that several times in this thread, with widely variable results.

 

Ah yes, my unit. It's ok to bang on my unit and critique my unit and expect me to run back and change my unit to the new way of thinking. I should be saying, "Boys, burn the shirts, put on your blue jeans and let's just say we're Scouts!" Is that it?

 

Because I daresay, I'm the one who has said several times that I am open to amending my view and my opinion, if provable facts are given. That's all I've asked.

 

However, when another poster who is on the opposite side of me posts and uses his Pack as an example, we get this, "This describes my Cub Scout Pack's use of the uniforming method.

 

It produces a wide range of results, from boys who regularly appear in full uniform to boys who regularly appear in just the neckerchief and slide they are issued when they join.

 

Does anyone care to suggest that this is wrong, bad, inadequate, sloppy or whatever?"

 

Fro those of you keeping score at home, that was a dare to call him out.

 

So, in short, it's perfectly ok to bang on the uniforming units as being petty, intolerant, unscoutlike, unkind, and uncourteous, but good golly sakes if we dare say anything against the lassiez faire mentality we get this...I DARE YOU!

 

And I'm maniacal. Riiiigggghhhttt.

 

So, you see, it really isn't that I'm close minded or that I don't want to learn. I do. When it comes to the uniforming method, I would like solid facts so that I can have the Scouts get a better understanding as they deliberate for the amendment vote in May. As it is, what I got was that I am a maniac, that I am some sort of modified Nazi-type (talk about jumping the shark, whenever Hitler or his minions are brought in, the Fonz always makes that jump), that I am unkind and vindictive.

 

No. I disagree. This is about the Scouts taking pride in their method. This is not about undermining another method or holding the Scouts down or having to watch a Scout drop out. They just don't in my troop. We're not an Eagle mill, but we have our fair share. Many boys just age out. Many get too involved in sports and other activities (remember I'm from a small town, where our Scouts are also starting in 3 sports in high school, if not more).

 

Our challenge is competing against the high school activities. So we use things which stand out to help. The Scouts recognized that the uniforming method was one way in 1985. The Scouts since have agreed. And on this forum I am vilified for sharing my Troop's view and my PLC's history.

 

So, that's fine. Think me a maniac. I'm not. I'm pretty open and very transparent. It's the others you should be looking out for, they are the one's who undermine...not me.

[Beavah]

As it is, what I got was that I am a maniac, that I am some sort of modified Nazi-type (talk about jumping the shark, whenever Hitler or his minions are brought in, the Fonz always makes that jump)

 

Yah, hmmmm....

 

So, I just searched the entire thread for the terms "nazi" and "Hitler". The only person who has used either of those two terms is camilam42.

 

I invoke Godwin's Law. The discussion is over, and camilam42 loses.

 

Beavah

 

[JMHawkins]

What'll we do with a semi-uniformed ASM?

What'll we do with a semi-uniformed ASM?

What'll we do with a semi-uniformed ASM?

Earl-eye in the morning.

 

Way, hay, up she rises.

Way, hay, up she rises.

Way, hay, up she rises.

Earl-eye in the morning.

 

Chuck 'm in a tent with some smelly socks.

Chuck 'm in a tent with some smelly socks.

Chuck 'm in a tent with some smelly socks.

Earl-eye in the morning

 

Way, hay, up she rises.

Way, hay, up she rises.

Way, hay, up she rises.

Earl-eye in the morning.

 

Keep him in there 'til ten o'clock.

Keep him in there 'til ten o'clock.

Keep him in there 'til ten o'clock.

Earl-eye in the morning.

 

Way, hay, up she rises.

Way, hay, up she rises.

Way, hay, up she rises.

Earl-eye in the morning.

 

 

[Basementdweller]

You know what....my pants aren't official BSA pants....shhhhh.....don't tell anyone

 

I am ok with that.....

 

You know the boys don't care either.....what they care about is I am there, and we are going camping this weekend. I won't be wearing BSA pants then either.

[OldGreyEagle]

I always thought the drunken sailor was a male

 

Beavah beat me to the Godwin's Rule, in the old days I would have closed the thread and declared Camilam the loser because he brought up Nazi's first but there is nuance in what he said. I am glad Beavah cured me of those impulses

 

If we just dropped the uniform wouldnt life be a dream sweetheart?

[acco40]

Methods of Scouting are guidelines to help develop your troop program they are NOT mandates from Mt. Sinai so get over yourselves already.

 

Incorrect.

The methods are the tools we've signed up to use to reach the aims of Scouting that we agreed to strive to accomplish. If you choose to reach for different aims or to reach the same aims a different way, feel free but please do it outside the auspices of the BSA.

 

Advancement is one of those methods. How come nobody puts forth the red herring to those when asked if they employ the advancement method - so are you telling me that if I don't spend every waking minute checking to see if a scout has completed a requirement or working toward advancement that I have a bad unit? Are you going turn away a scout who is not interested in advancement?

 

The BSA has aims and laid out the methods we are to use to meet those aims. We've signed up to deliver that program. Why don't we use it?

[Beavah]

I am glad Beavah cured me of those impulses

 

Hee hee! Well, yeh know, OGE, I would probably have let it go except he used the "N" word 4 or 5 times in the thread. It was just a bit too ironic to have the fellow then accuse others of usin' it.

 

I hear yeh with respect to just dumpin' the uniform. Yeh hear folks talk about just dumpin' Eagle Scout as well. Heck, I know some schools that have just eliminated Valedictorian for the same reason, eh? The adults just screw it up for the kids too often.

 

Me, I sort of like the uniform method, and advancement. Done right, both are real assets to a program. I sorta like a valedictory too, eh? Better to listen to a bright kid than a bunch of old coots prattlin' on.

 

Beavah

 

[SeattlePioneer]

>

 

 

You have to go pretty far afield before your council will refuse to renew your charter. If your council will issue a unit a charter, who are you to invite them out of Scouting?

 

 

We all have varying ideas of how to deal with the challenges our units face and the resources leaders bring to the program. Our aim should be to do our best we what we have or can build.

 

What we can do here is to share our varying experiences and try to use that information to improve our own programs and perhaps help other leaders build their own programs.

 

That's my view anyway.