What to do with semi-uniformed ASM

[camilam42]

I just went back to our bylaws and I found the following as a basis for the importance in our troop. This is documented as being from 1985 and has been ratified 8 times with another ratification of the bylaws coming up this May.

 

For the boy a uniform is a big, attraction, and when it is a dress such as backwoodsmen wear it takes him in imagination to be directly linked up with those frontiersmen who are heroes to him.

 

The uniform also makes for Brotherhood, since when universally adopted it covers up all differences of class and country.

 

The Scout uniform, moreover, is simple and hygienic (a step now much in fashion) approximating that of our ancestors. Of this we are reminded when we sing round the camp-fire, to the tune of the "Men of Harlech."

 

What's the good of wearing braces,

Vests and pants and boots with laces,

Spats, or hats you buy in places

Down in Brompton Road?

 

What's the use of shirts of cotton,

Studs that always get forgotten?

These affairs are simply rotten,

Better far is woad.

--Robert Baden-Powell, Lessons from the Varsity of Life

 

The Scouts in 1985 used that as their basis for the uniforming method. Robert Baden-Powell still wields some influence, huh? I mentioned above that another ratification of bylaws is coming up in May. The Scouters don't have a vote on amendments ratified by the PLC. Only the PLC can vote them up or down. It takes a simple majority. I can tell you that by looking back, there have been 8 no votes since 1985. This year, I am guessing that it will be unanimous to the affirmative to ratify, but I could be wrong. Regardless, it will pass.

 

As I've said several times, this isn't about the adults running anything, this is about the Scouts running and the adults leading. That is what a Scouter is supposed to do.(This message has been edited by camilam42)

[BadenP]

camilan

 

Quoting BP is nice, yet remember the first couple of scouting most of the boys had partial or no uniforms, are you saying those boys were not true scouts? I hope not. Baden Powell sure didn't think that way, look at some early photographs of him with scouts, many of them in partial or no uniforms. Yes full uniforms are the the ideal to strive for yet the reality is that for various reasons that goal is not always obtainable. Quoting BP to affirm your my way or the highway perspective smacks of elitism to me.

 

[camilam42]

@BadenP;

 

Quoting BP is nice, yet remember the first couple of scouting most of the boys had partial or no uniforms, are you saying those boys were not true scouts? I hope not. Baden Powell sure didn't think that way, look at some early photographs of him with scouts, many of them in partial or no uniforms. Yes full uniforms are the the ideal to strive for yet the reality is that for various reasons that goal is not always obtainable. Quoting BP to affirm your my way or the highway perspective smacks of elitism to me.

 

Did you even read my post? I'm curious. I quoted the bylaws as was ratified by the Scouts themselves. Those of us who are Scouters simply help the Scouts.

 

Where did you ever get the idea that I thought a Scout wasn't a Scout unless he was fully uniformed? Where? No place have I stated that. I've actually spoken to the contrary multiple times. You wanna quote me as saying the uniform is required, save the two instances where it actually is required? I've not said that either.

 

You want to talk about elitism, well....it's pretty elitist to begrudge a PLC for holding to the uniforming method.

 

I'll just chalk up your post to the fact that you didn't read my post more carefully. What a misrepresentation of a view. Wow!

 

Furthermore, the debate is perpetuated by those with a laissez-faire mentality with regard to the uniform method.(This message has been edited by camilam42)

[BadenP]

camilan

 

The passage you quoted was taken out of context and shows me that you truly believe what I said in my post. I think your PLC can require full uniform, but tell me are you going to turn away any boy who can not fulfill that requirement? If so that is elitism.

[camilam42]

@ BadenP;

 

 

The passage you quoted was taken out of context and shows me that you truly believe what I said in my post. I think your PLC can require full uniform, but tell me are you going to turn away any boy who can not fulfill that requirement? If so that is elitism.

 

That passage was not taken out of context, it was/is the basis for the troop I am associated with adopting and expecting the uniform. Of course we won't turn away a boy who cannot fulfill the requirement. IF you go back and read my posts from earlier, you'll see that we have a loan closet from which a needy Scout can obtain any of the four pieces of the uniform save the socks. So, this whole argument you're putting forth is moot, and you'd understand that if you would just read what I have written.

 

How can holding true to a method of Scouting be elitist? I disagree with your whole premise that proper uniforming is elitist. It is a fallacious premise and one that cannot stand scrutiny.

 

All of that being said, I can only state one more time that our troop employs the uniform method. It is part of the bylaws, as amended by the PLC. They may at the appropriate time choose to either revoke or ratify the amendment, however in the last 27 years since the amendment was passed there have been exactly 8 no votes to the uniform method. Since the uniform method is part of this troop's aim of Scouting the Scouters support the PLC in making sure that the Scouts are held accountable for their uniforms. This is done on many levels, but most often, the Scouts themselves make it clearly known when someone is out of uniform. However, when the Scouters see a pattern it will be brought to the individuals attention. This is done in a friendly, courteous, kind and helpful way; contrary to what some here might think or assume.

 

The bottom line, I am not the uniform police/nazi for any troop beyond my own. I do monitor it, because we have been asked to, by the PLC and the Committee. If it is an isolated event, we often let it slide. If it is a habit or it becomes a problem of not following the method, the SPL will first comment, then the Scouters will intervene. This applies equally to the Scouters.

 

Our Scouts have no problem with this, because they by into the method. You might not like the method, but then again, I don't like car camping, but you don't see me running anyone down the rail because they car camp. I think that it's cheating. But hey...who am I? I'm just a Scouter who cares enough to follow the wishes of the PLC and the Committee. Don't get me started about junk food on any sort of campout...then you'll really get my ire up. That includes soda.

[camilam42]

Does anyone care to suggest that this is wrong, bad, inadequate, sloppy or whatever?

 

I won't pass judgment, but I will offer this for consideration:

 

Wearing uniforms has been a method of the Scouting movement from the beginning. Decades of experience show uniforming to have many benefits, including these:

 

Equality. The uniform represents a democratic ideal of equality. Boys from various cultures and different economic levels wear the same uniform and cooperate as equals.

Identification. The uniform identifies a boy as a member of the Cub Scouts. Badges on the uniform tell other members that he belongs to their den, pack, and council. The uniform itself identifies a good citizen to the entire community.

Achievement. The uniform displays badges and other awards so the accomplishments of each Cub Scout can be immediately recognized.

Commitment. Wearing a uniform is a constant reminder to each Cub Scout of his commitment to the ideals and purposes of Cub Scouting: duty to God, loyalty to country, and helpfulness to others.

 

For these reasons, among others, all parents should emphasize to their Scouts the importance of wearing the correct and complete uniform on all suitable occasions.

 

Continuing on:

 

In general, every Cub Scout should wear his uniform to all Cub Scouting activities, including den and pack meetings, unit outings, and any activities done with members of the den or pack. When playing sports, going to camp, or participating in other physical activities, a pack may opt to have the Cub Scouts wear an alternate uniform, such as an activity shirt. Pack leaders should provide advance notice of any occasion when the boys should wear anything other than the complete uniform.

 

Here are some tips for wearing the uniform:

 

DO keep the uniform clean and in good repair. The official uniform is a sturdy, machine-washable garment that will last for years with proper care.

DO be sure to wear the complete uniform. A Cub Scout wearing a uniform with parts missing is not in uniform.

DO NOT wear non-BSA badges, awards, or insignia on the Cub Scout uniform or make any alterations to the uniform or insignia.

DO NOT mix uniform parts with non-uniform clothing, such as wearing a uniform cap with other clothing or wearing the uniform shirt with blue jeans. The uniform should be treated as a unitworn in its entirety, or not at all.

 

Any time you are uncertain about uniform regulations, ask the den leader for guidance.

(emphasis mine)

 

So, while I won't pass judgment, there does, IN FACT, seem to be a best practices in place according to the BSA, with regard to the wearing of the Cub Scout uniform. I'll let you do the deducing on your own.

 

Source: http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/CubScouts/Parents/Awards/Parents.aspx

[SeattlePioneer]

Hello camilam42,

 

 

Yes, I think your references are being negative about the methods used to promote uniforming in my Pack.

 

I can show you a lengthy list of obligations suggested for ANY Scouting position, and few or none will meet them all.

 

When I see such lists, I choose for myself the ones I am either interested in doing or good at doing.

 

That applies to uniforming as well.

 

If I wanted to devote all my time to uniforming issues I could do so, but my pack would collapse.

 

Yes, devoting excessive time and resources to uniforming will undermine and perhaps destroy a good many Scout units I suggest.

 

Like so many things, a list of things is not a substitute for GOOD JUDGMENT as a leader!

[BDPT00]

I haven't seen a single word in camilam42's posts that imply that he looks down on anyone else's units because of uniforming. Where did that notion come from? He's talking about Methods, his troop's PLC, and how his troop operates. Does this have something to do with your unit? No. Give it a rest. If you don't want to emphasize Scouting's Methods, that's up to you and your own Scouts. Camilam42's not telling you what to do. Neither am I. Wear what you wish. Set whatever example you see fit. If you ever join camilam42's unit, then you can argue about it in person.

BDPT00

 

 

[Eagledad]

The mission of the Boy Scouts of America is to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law.

 

We adults are given a direction to reaching that mission with the Three Aims of Scouting: Growth In moral and character, Participating citizenship and Development of physical, mental and emotional fitness.

 

The adults are guided and tought that the Eight Methods are how the scouts work toward the Three Aims are:

 

Advancement

Ideals

Patrols

Outdoors

Adult Association

Personal Growth

Leadership Development

Uniform

 

The Boy Scout Handbook and Scoutmaster Handbook clearly state how adults and scouts should wear the uniform during scouting activities.

 

The Scoutmaster Specific Course talks about Uniform in three different sections of the course. None of those sections teach how not to wear the uniform.

 

You guys who disparage and belittle folks who are just trying to keep their head above water by following the BSA guidelines think you have any credibility because you say its for the boys? If you cant present your point without making yourself above it all and without the example of the cost of uniforms, then you aren't helping. Yes, it is for the boys. All eight methods are for the boys. The Scout Handbook is for the boys. The adult Handbooks are for the boys, and the adult training is for the boys.

 

And, the uniform is also for the boys.

 

Youve brought your own personal emotion in on the discussion and lost any real rational instruction for new leaders. You dont appear to be giving any guidience, just a bunch of chest beatings. YOu aren't helping the poor SM any more than you change the mind of the Uniform Police adult. You aren't helping. Put yourself in the Scoutmaster Specifics Instructor's shoes.

 

 

Barry

 

[camilam42]

@ SeattlePioneer;

 

If I wanted to devote all my time to uniforming issues I could do so, but my pack would collapse.

 

I fail to see how that could possibly be the case. If, as you say, your Scouts can apply their popcorn monies to uniforms, then there really is no reason why a uniforming standard cannot be put into place. Unless of course, you don't set sales goals for your Pack, which then would lead to some Scouts not making enough dollars to be able to get a uniform. But I seriously doubt that this is the case, as you comport yourself to be a good leader and I believe that, 100%.

 

Yes, devoting excessive time and resources to uniforming will undermine and perhaps destroy a good many Scout units I suggest.

 

In all my years of scouting, which goes back to 1981, I have never seen a Pack or a Troop undermined because of uniforming and employing that method. Perhaps it is because every Pack and Troop I've been involved with has held the uniforming method to be as important as any other method.

 

Like so many things, a list of things is not a substitute for GOOD JUDGMENT as a leader!

 

You're 100% right. 100%!!!! But part of good judgment with regard to Scouting is employing the methods which are employable. There can be nothing detrimental to Scouting if the method is properly applied. This absolutely includes uniforming. If the Pack or Troop employs the method, the only bad judgment can come from not employing said method to the standard as put forth from the BSA.

[KC9DDI]

All this doom and gloom and prophesies about how devoting "too much time" to uniforming could drive away members and destroy a troop's program... sheesh!

 

I spent some time doing a rough calculation of how much time and effort has been devoted to "uniforming" in my units:

 

How many scouts or families have been driven away from my units over uniforming? Zero.

 

How much time is spent per year on matters pertaining to uniforming? Maybe an hour or two, total. Basically just sharing our goals and expectations with new scouts and their parents. And saying "if this is a concern, feel free to talk to me in confidence and we'll work something out."

 

Amount of other program we haven't been able to do due to uniforming issues? Zero.

 

Number of Scouts in our units? Troop - bounces between 60 and 80. Crew - Bounces between 20 and 30.

 

Number of Scouts "turned away" from the troop due to uniforming issues? Zero. (And, who exactly is actually turning people away due to uniforming? I'm seeing a bunch of people being accused of it, but no one actually ever having done it....)

 

Summer camp attendance? Roughly 80%.

 

Weekend camp out and other trips attendance? Anywhere from 50-90%.

 

Uniforming "compliance" (for lack of a better word)? Roughly 80% for normal troop meetings, approaching 100% for formal events. This is well within the goals and expectations set by our PLC and committee.

 

What exactly is the source of all these accusations that units that set a high standard for uniforming are always on the brink of failure and destruction?(This message has been edited by KC9DDI)

[SeattlePioneer]

>

 

 

How many Scouts in your unit 3 1/2 years ago --- we had one. We rechartered this year with 14.

 

 

 

 

Our pack committee has never had an occasion to discuss uniforming. In recent months we have been working to improve poor advancement results and to encourage our new Advancement Chair to deal with advancement issues.

 

You think we should disregard poor advancement results in favor of spending limited time and energy on uniforming?

 

I see your unit decides for itself what it's uniforming standards will be. Thank you for making my point.

 

I am spending my time this month organizing the pack Pinewood Derby, and next month our recruiting night and plans to introduce new families to an excellent Cub Scout program designed just for those new families.

 

As part of those efforts every new Cub Scout will be awarded a pack neckerchief I make along with a slide I make the day he joins the pack in a simple ceremony, the idea being to encourage uniforming.

 

But I can see you would be unhappy with such efforts. Perhaps you think these activities should be abandoned in favor of spending my limited time promoting uniforming among existing Cub Scouts?

 

Thank you for making the point that you have no understanding at all of the issues other units may have.

 

 

 

 

[Beavah]

What exactly is the source of all these accusations that units that set a high standard for uniforming are always on the brink of failure and destruction?

 

Yah, I don't think anybody is sayin' that KC9DDI.

 

All I suggested was that in my experience strictly uniformed troops are typically the most adult-run.

 

Yeh can see that in camilam42's comments, eh? Like the bit about the PLC adopting the long BP-quote as part of their charter and bylaws.

 

First, boys don't naturally go hog-wild about adopting and ratifying charters and bylaws over and over again without a lot of adult driving. Second, there isn't a group of red-blooded boys anywhere that wouldn't read da first two sentences and point out that (1) the BSA uniform doesn't make yeh look like a "backwoodsman" at all and (2) that the BSA uniform doesn't cover up differences in country the way old B-P's uniform did, it identifies yeh as American.

 

Boys have a keen sense for that sort of thing, eh?

 

So to get to that full spit-and-polished thing, yeh have to do the stuff that camilam42 suggests. Adults "calling out" boys on their uniform. Adults quotin' longwinded boldfaced uniform apologetics.

 

That's no different from some other methods, eh? Yeh can get to full spit-and-polished outdoors method if the adults handle all the gear and the adults plan & run the outings. It will look sharp and well-organized. It will seem exciting and proper... to the adults. They can quote B-P passages on outdoorsmanship and such. Yeh can get to full spit-and-polished advancement method in the same way, with full T-2-1 curriculum progression documents and the like, and long quotes from the G2A. Yeh can even claim that the PLC "ratified" that full T-2-1 curriculum progression and the lecture series on required merit badges.

 

It just depends on your goals, eh? If your goals as a unit are to look sharp, well, then I reckon that's the fastest, straight-line path to the goal.

 

If your goals have more to do with developin' character and skill in the lads, then that depends on the boys being able to make choices. On an adult-run outing, boys learn how to be good tourists, following their guide. Tourism can be fun. But if yeh want boys to really learn to be outdoorsmen, they have to make choices, and mistakes, and guide themselves.

 

In adult-run advancement, boys learn how to be good classroom students and test-takers. School can be fun, passing tests for awards can be fun. But if yeh want boys to really become self-motivated learners who pursue deeper interests on their own, then they have to make choices, and mistakes, and learn to guide themselves.

 

Same with adult-run uniforming. Dressing sharp can be fun, at least occasionally. But if yeh want boys to really develop character internally, more than the external trappings, they have to make choices, and mistakes, and guide themselves. Good uniform method in scouting is all about the youth self-identifying with the movement, eh? It doesn't happen when they ratify B-P's words or look sharp in a photograph. It happens when they proudly exchange neckers with another troop, using their own words to describe their necker and the scouting identity it symbolizes.

 

Beavah

 

 

 

 

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[camilam42]

What exactly is the source of all these accusations that units that set a high standard for uniforming are always on the brink of failure and destruction?

 

There is none. I've asked that question here and I've not yet received an answer. I've asked for some credible evidence which would change my opinion, because I do have the ability to adapt, if my opinion can be proven wrong. That hasn't happened yet either.

 

In my estimation, the reason that some don't like uniforms is twofold:

 

1. They see it as a money making scam by the BSA. The look at the uniform changes as a way for the BSA to constantly drag money out of Scouts and Scouters. This certainly isn't the case, even though many will argue it. How do I know this? Because any Scout uniform whether it be from 1910, to 2012 is a valid uniform, provided it is badged properly. Nobody is holding a flame to the feet of another to force them into the centennial uniform.

 

2. They don't like the fact that the uniform has been outsourced to China. Well, I don't like it either, but economics is economics. There is no way, in today's global society that anyone can not have something which is not produced in another country. It just isn't possible to have absolutely everything from the USA.

 

Oh, they'll complain that it's too expensive and that the reasoning is that the Scouts/Scouters just can't afford it. I don't buy that either. I've already shown that the cost is minimal, especially if one takes care of the uniform or invests in two. I can do the math again, but I daresay that someone will come back and say that spending $180 for two uniforms is too much. Well, cut out a cup of coffee. One cup and that $180 would go away. At my local convenience store a cup of coffee costs $0.79. Multiply that $0.79 by 365 and what is the answer? $288.35. One cup of coffee, of course one would have to upfront those 365 cups of coffee.

 

And the final thing. One would know exactly where his monies were going. As an example, I look at my uniforms as a donation to the BSA. That being the case, I'm absolutely fine with spending the cash upfront. I know what and where my monies will be applied, for the most part and I don't have to worry about them being shuffled here and there to things which I don't approve.

[qwazse]

$180 for two uniforms is too much. Well, cut out a cup of coffee.

 

You mean I could have had six more months of coffee if it weren't for this uniform? Dang!