Shoulder loop/sleeve patch question

[Crossramwedge]

Let me make a clarification here. He wears a orange loop on his left shoulder and a green loop on his right shoulder. Two different color loops one on each shoulder. On page 159 of the SM hand book you find this "While scouters may wear the insignia to which they are entitled , a total display may not be in the best interest if the uniform looks overdecorated. Unauthorized insignia or incorrect wearing of authorized insignia is always wrong. Scouters must set the example for scouts in this matter. The SM who wears only his SM emblem, council or community strip,troop numeral and service star on his uniform is never guilty of poor taste" As far as the District patch so be it. I still am of the opinion he needs to wear only onset of the same color loops. He in my humble opinion is improperly wearing them having a orange loop on one shoulder and a green loop on the other.

 

By the way are troop is not boring and is considered by many to be the top troop in the district. In our district The OA has nothing on us as a whole. I am in the OA as well as my son. Our troop is very active in it. Our Scoutmaster is an OA advisor and this young man holds an office in the OA.

[shortridge]

Of course it's wrong - IMHO, it would look positively silly. No one's argued otherwise. But if you go to this young man citing rules, regs and page numbers, his opinion of you is going to drop measurably. Is it worth it to prove yourself right?

 

Please note that no one said that your troop is boring. I asked the question why this Scout wants his Scouting identity to be beyond the troop. Could it be that the troop program is boring *to him*? Or that it no longer offers the type of personal challenges or adult interaction that he wants or needs? You won't know unless you go ask him, and *listen* to his answers.

 

Lead the conversation gently around to a question of why he wants to wear two colors of loops. Remind him that all Scouts and Scouters are supposed to wear one color, befitting their registration. Then get into the nitty-gritty of what he saw at NYLT that obviously made a huge impression on him, what he sees at the district level that could help your troop, and what he'd change if he were in charge. I daresay you'll get some pretty good insights.

 

But charging forward with the uniform rulebook in your hand won't accomplish that.

[desertrat77]

Shortridge, well said.

[BDPT00]

So what's the problem? Are we afraid to tell someone in a leadership role and representing the OA, the district, and NYLT that he needs to set a better example?

If he were in my charge, I wouldn't hesitate.

BDPT00

 

[ideadoc]

Rather than just having a conversation about why the Troop has lost his interest, I think it would be important to discuss the nature of servant leadership (which, as an NYLT staffer should not be a new concept) and why calling attention to oneself rather than focusing your attention on those you are leading (and you don't have to hold a leadership position to be a leader) is not the most effective method.

 

Surprised and disappointed that an NYLT program would encourage something like this.

[Eagle92]

Idea,

 

You'd be surprised at what some council "traditions" are in regards to NYLT and council staff.

[BDPT00]

The OP didn't mention whether he was an NYLT staffer or not. Either way, if it's a tradition (or what ever it might be called), it should be corrected by the Council Executive. I agree with Ideadoc... bringing attention to oneself ("Look at me!") is contrary to what should be taught at NYLT.

BDPT00

[Crossramwedge]

Again we are considered the top troop out of 45 troops in our district. He is getting plenty of adult leader interaction and He is very involved in the troop. I dare say he is far from being bored. I personally thinks he like to draw attention to himself. Period. You know look at me syndrome. He is stubborn and likes to get his way. The kids in the troop look up to him and he is a good kid. I explained to him that I believe that the loop thing is against BSA policy and he is considered out of uniform. I have explained that the younger kids look up to him and he needs to set an example by sticking to BSA uniform policy. I explained to him that if does it the younger kids may start doing it. He informed me that the only way that he would stop wearing them in that manner is that I show him a BSA policy that specifically states that he can not wear his loops that way. He is standing on the principle that if there is NO spelled out specific regulation that you cannot do it then it is OK to do it. Funny, I know adult Scouters who do the same thing.(This message has been edited by crossramwedge)

[desertrat77]

Crossram, in this case, I'd pick my battles and let the issue be. I don't think there is anything else constructive to be done.

 

If he's doing it for a) ego and b) to tweak peoples' whiskers, the best thing to do is ignore the loops and not say a word about it. Every time an adult tries to correct him, he's thriving on the conflict. No need to feed it. He'll realize the right way eventually.

[Eagle92]

If he wants it in writing, here's links to official BSA publications:

 

http://www.scoutstuff.org/media/content/docs/pdfs/34283.pdf

 

 

While a bit outdated, it refers to red loops for Boy Scouts:

 

http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/Media/InsigniaGuide/06A.aspx

 

 

 

In regards to the district job that he has, never heard of it before BTW,

 

http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/Media/InsigniaGuide/10.aspx

 

 

 

 

[BDPT00]

This shouldn't be necessary. There are a lot of things wrong with this whole picture. If NYLT is the source of this shoulder loop thing, they need some guidance. If the district thinks a 16 year old should be wearing a District Committee patch, they also need some direction.

The Scout has some growing up to do. I'd have a hard time with his attitude, and I've now lost interest in the subject. Good luck.

BDPT00

[Eagle92]

BD,

 

I agree with you on the NYLT comment, it should be fixed there. Again I saw some things with the old JLT course in my current council. I was a JLT staffer prior to being a DE, and when I saw some of the shenanigans going on, I discussed it with the DD who was the staff adviser. I was told in no uncertain terms that I don't know what I'm talking in regards to JLT, what they are doing has always been allowed, and that they are not changing anything.

 

 

But I must respectfully disagree with you on a youth being on the district committee. If you look at the OA literature, a 12YO Arrowman who has been elected chapter chief could be on the district committee. Ditto on the council committee if elected Lodge chief. Also a 13.5yo Venturer elected as District President or council president will serve on their respective level committee. the 2011 Venturing SOP can be found here http://www.scouting.org/filestore/venturing/pdf/venturingstandardoperatingprocedures.pdf

 

 

 

As for patches, I think it is a shame that OA Chapter and Lodge Chiefs do not have their own POR patches, yet the Venturing District and Council Presidents, do. I do not know how it is in other areas, but there are more Arrowman then Venturers in my district and council, and the respective chiefs represent more youth than their Venturing counterparts. heck we don't even have a district venturing president b/c we only have 2 crews active. But since the Arrowman do not have their own patch, and they are on the respective committee during their term of office, why shouldn't they,in their term of office, wear the silver loops and respective committee patch?

 

Now I know the argument is that the duty of the Arrowman is to serve their units, and thus they do not need a separate patch, but this no longer holds credibility due to the Venturing district and Council president patches.

[CalicoPenn]

On one hand - good for him for insisting that someone show him the rule. We tell people on the forum that all the time so we have to set the example and live with it when someone turns around and tells us the same.

 

So, in that spirit - the following is from the online Insignia guide that can be found on BSA's website:

 

Shoulder Loops

 

Colored shoulder loops identify the area of Scouting: blue, Cub Scouting; red, Boy Scouting; blaze, Varsity Scouting; green, Venturing; silver, council and district; gold, national and regional. Wear the color for the primary registered position in which you are functioning.

 

Look beyond the "red" for Boy Scouting (the copyright is 2010, obviously the online version needs a bit of updating). The relevant part is the last sentence, and it comes right from the horse's mouth, so to speak.

 

"Wear the color for the primary registered position in which you are functioning".

 

If the lad is at a Troop meeting as a member of the Troop, that is the primary registered position in which he is functioning - and he wears the Red or Forest Green. He doesn't wear Orange, he doesn't wear Blue, he doesn't wear Silver - he wears Red or Forest Green. It is impossible to function in two primary registered positions at the same time - though some may think they can, they are fooling themselves. You're either functioning as a Scoutmaster or functioning as a District Committee person - you can't do both in the same instant of time. Same goes for the boys. You're either functioning as a Den Chief or functioning as a Patrol Leader - you can't do both at the same instant of time. Yes, you could hold those positions simultaneously, but you can only function in them one at a time.

 

Note too that you wear the shoulder loops for the registered position you are functioning in - and Boy Scout (with no POR) is considered a position in this case. Is the lad registered as a Varsity Scout? No? Then he can't wear the Orange loop at all - he's not registered in that position - regardless of what the NYLT tradition is. But if he is registred as a Varsity Scout - then he wears the Orange loops when he is functioning as a Varsity Scout.

 

Since he can't function as a Boy Scout and a Varsity Scout at the same moment in time, he has to choose one set of loops over another - and if he comes to Troop meetings as a Boy Scout wearing Orange loops, he's still out of uniform - he has to wear the Forest Green (or Red).

 

As for the District Committee patch? He can't wear that either, despite the fancy Youth Liason title. There is no registered Youth Liason position on the District Committee, and one can't register for the District Committee until one is 21 years of age. You can't wear an SPL patch if you aren't a SPL. You can't wear a Scoutmaster patch if you aren't a Scoutmaster. you can't wear a District Committee patch if you aren't registered as a District Committee member, and if you can't register for the District Committee until you are 21, then you can't wear the patch as a youth.

 

Chapter Chiefs are not members of the District Committee - they serve as members of the District CAMPING or Boy Scout committee (some Districts may have a Cub Scout committee, a Boy Scout committee, a Varsity committee,etc. - all under the umbrella of the District Committee) - not as members of the District Committee. One does not need to be a District Committee member to serve on the committees of the District. Think of a District Committee more as a "board of directors" - with the directors having their own committees that do the work and report up to the board on what's going on.

 

Crossram - show the lad this section of the insignia guide and ask him what he thinks that means. Have a heart to heart with him - hopefully he gts the point.