Shoulder loop/sleeve patch question

[Crossramwedge]

I have a young man in my troop who wears 2 different shoulder loops. On one shoulder he wears an orange loop (NYLT) and on the other shoulder he wears a green loop. Is this normal and is there any BSA regulation that would specifically allow or disallow this? He also has been appointed

(at the age of 16)as the District Committee Youth liaison and wears a District Committee Shoulder patch. How can he be on this committee when (Per BSA reg.) he can not be on a troop committee until he is 18?

[ReneScout]

Orange (blaze) loops are for Varsity scouts, which is an LDS program. Unless the scout is a part of that organization, he should not be wearing it. Despite the prevalence of it, NYLT is /not/ permitted or enabled to create its own shoulder loops. I've rolled my eyes and shaken my head at kids wearing camo loops with sergeant stripes, citing their NYLT job as "trailblazer" as permission enough to use them, which is total BS. Loops are an official part of the BSA uniforming policy and is not a subject that can be changed by anyone less than the powers that be in Irving.

 

And since loops are intended to show the /primary registration/ of the Scouting member, he should always have only one color of loops on. In this case, the scout should wear -only- the green unit level loops.

 

Despite being a member of the district committee, I would heavily discourage his use of the DC shoulder patch for a number of reasons. He's a youth member and should show his unit position as a result. Despite being a member of the committee, he is not primarily registered to the district. Furthermore, if someone wears the committee patch, they should wear silver shoulder loops. (And I would hate to add another color of loops to this young man's assortment for fear of confusing him further. Man, the sight of THREE loop colors would be a trippy sight.) This policy goes along the same reason that chapter and lodge chiefs in the Order of the Arrow have no official position patches because they are youth and should still be devoting their time and energy towards their units and show their support to that group. I have my opinions on that policy, but that's for another day.

 

As for your last question, the district committee and troop committees can totally have youth members. In my troop, the SPL is a nonvoting member if invited, as are lodge and chapter chiefs in the OA in their respective council and district committees (again, if invited). However, and this is just an afterthought opinion, I would not say that members of these committees should wear the official committee member patches if they are under the age of 18, including this lad.

 

Sorry I wasn't able to finger out any official publication or policy numbers, but I hope someone else can ratify my thoughts with something more concrete.

[Tampa Turtle]

Many a cub/boy scout leader with one shirt switches tabs between meetings. They even slide under each other. That's what the button is for.

[emb021]

There are only a certain number of loops:

 

Blue- Cub Scout unit leaders along with Webelos Scouts

Red and now olive green- Boy Scouts and Boy Scout unit leaders

Orange- Varsity Scouts and Varsity Scout unit leaders

Spruce green- Venturers and Venturing unit leaders

Silver- District/Council leaders (adults and professionals) and SOME limited youth

Gold- Area/Region/National leaders (adults and professionals) and SOME limited youth

 

You wear the loops for the position you hold. It has ZILCH with your 'primary' position, as you can hold several positions at different levels, and you want the loops to match the office patch and what you are doing.

 

Yes, SOME youth can wear silver and gold. But they should ONLY do so if they have a formal position, and should wear it ONLY when performing that position. (ie, at their unit, they are unit members, so they shouldn't be wearing gold or silver). In addition to OA officers, there are Venturing youth leaders from District to National (with office patches, unlike the OA youth leaders).

 

NO ONE, not councils, courses or units, can create their own loops. NO ONE should be adding anything to the loops (pins or patches). Its not authorized.

 

 

[Eagle92]

Ditto what Emb said. Scout needs to wear either the old red loops, or the new green loops. Only official special loops I've seen are those folks going to 2010 NSJ, and one scout I met who went to the 2011 WSJ, and national made those.

 

There are a limited number of youth that can wear the silver and gold loops. I know in the OA section of the website, there was a discussion on this topic, i.e. can the Lodge Chief and/or Chapter Chiefs wear silver loops, wear districtor council committee patches and vote on the committees. If you read the literature, LC should be on exec board and has voting rights, but councils do not always follow. I've seen LCs wearing the extremely rare LC patch withthe silver loops, as well as repros and Council Committee patches.

 

Kinda sad that a LC and CC don't have their own patch, yet the Venturing District President and Council President do have their own patches. OH well they can wear the council and district committee patches.

 

EDITED: For got to add, they do not wear unit numbers with the district/council POR patches and silver loops.(This message has been edited by eagle92)

[emb021]

Comment on this:

 

"the district committee and troop committees can totally have youth members. In my troop, the SPL is a nonvoting member if invited, as are lodge and chapter chiefs in the OA in their respective council and district committees (again, if invited)."

 

Not quite.

 

At the district and council level, there are really only some youth who could wear silver. As noted, these could be the chapter and lodge chiefs and the district and council venturing president. There is NO proviso for any other 'district youth representative'. Like Eagle92, I am puzzled by the fact that we have district/council/area/region/national venturing president (and some cases vice-president) patches, but NO OA youth officer patches. I DO know that the regional and national OA chiefs DO wear gold loops and the appropriate regional/national committee patches. So why not the same for chapter/lodge/section chiefs???

 

NO, the SPL is NOT a 'non-voting' member of any troop committee. The SPL CAN attend troop committee meetings to present information and the like, but NOTHING makes him a member of the troop committee any more then a scoutmaster or assistant scoutmaster can be a member of the troop committee. It's not how it is to be done. Period.

 

Ditto to what Eagle92 says. When you hold a non-unit position, you NEVER wear unit numbers. I get so tired of seeing that by certain district/council volunteers.

 

 

[shortridge]

If this young man wants his public Scouting identity to be beyond the troop level - thus the different loops and the district patch - odds are the troop program no longer holds any interest for him. I'm just guessing here, though, based on my own experiences.

 

When I hit 14 and 15 and got active in the OA and on camp staff, my troop was boring. I was only barely active. I saw a larger world beyond the insularity of my troop and the church meeting room. There was a district, a chapter, a council, a lodge! You could rub shoulders with people several districts away, talk to them, learn from them, and lead them. Coordinating service projects at my council camp for 100+ Arrowmen made making work schedules for my troop's spaghetti dinner look dull.

 

Rather than slam this boy down for his unorthodox uniform approach, have a conversation with him. Ask him why he wants to wear that insignia rather than his troop insignia. Have the leadership challenges in the troop faded for him? What could the troop do to make him more interested?

 

Look at it this way. You have a boy who knows what a district is and wants to serve. How many other boys fall into those categories? Do you really want to stunt this Scout's journey because you don't like the color of his shoulder loops?

 

==========

 

ReneScout: FYI, Varsity Scouting is not an LDS program. It's open to anyone.

[emb021]

"If this young man wants his public Scouting identity to be beyond the troop level - thus the different loops and the district patch - odds are the troop program no longer holds any interest for him. I'm just guessing here, though, based on my own experiences."

 

I wouldn't quite look at it that way.

 

Every Venturer who holds a position above the unit can wear (depending on the position) silver/gold loops, appropriate office patch and sometimes a VOA patch. I have no problem with that. (same for OA officers at any level)

 

What I do have a problem is when such youth wear a uniform decked out for their non-unit position when they are NOT performing the duties of that position, say doing stuff within their unit.

 

I know of an area venturing president who hasn't done the job, but because they are an area officer, wears gold loops ALL THE TIME. Even when doing stuff that has zilch to do with there position as an area venturing president.

 

So, if this boy scout is wearing his "District Committee" patch on his uniform at troop events, then I can understand people questioning that. He should only wear it when he is doing that job, which would pretty much be at the district committee meetings, NOT in his troop.

 

A different (but similar) example is myself. I'm involved in Toastmasters. I am an officer in 2 clubs, plus I am an area governor (oversee 6-7 clubs). But neither of my clubs is in my area. So when I am at those clubs, I conduct myself as a member and officer of that club, NOT as an area governor. I let the area governor for those clubs do their job, not try to do it for them.

 

[Basementdweller]

Guys this is really ridiculous.....we are debating a boy wearing two shoulder loops at the same time.

 

 

??????????????

[desertrat77]

Basement, good point.

 

Equally ridiculous is the fact that shoulder loops exist in the first place.

[Eagle92]

'Rat,

 

Agree with you 100% on the loops.

[Mr. Boyce]

The loops don't do much information-wise, but only give a general notion. Plus, so what? Does it really matter to know at a distance?

[desertrat77]

Reflecting aloud....

 

Position patches on the sleeve sufficed for decades in the BSA, to show where one worked.

 

Then the ODL came along with the silly loops. And continued with the monstrosity we know as the Centennial Uniform.

 

For an organization that sometimes takes great pains to not be military, it is interesting that the BSA still uses the the parade-ground-peacock approach to uniforming, specifically the loops/epaulet.

 

Our uniforms might cost a little less if the shoulders were loop-less.

[Platypus96]

I would just like to point out something to the people who are upset by anyone wearing insignia at the wrong time. I own 5 scout shirts. One has green loops, troop number and an SPL patch, one has green loops, troop numbers and a den chief patch, one has silver loops, no numbers and an old Chapter Chief patch, and two are venturing shirts, one with green loops and one with silver (camp staff). Do I always wear the right uniform to the right meeting? No. Do I always do the right job at the right meeting? Yes. He's a kid. Sometime he'll lose a shirt. Sometimes he'll forget to do laundry. And sometimes his shirt will go home with someone else after a campout. As long as he is doing the job and knows what is expected, why do you care what shoulder loops hes wearing?

 

By the way, I know that not everyone can afford to have 5 scout shirts. I worked hard to earn the money to order those shirts off ebay. My den chief shirt is tiny because its the handme down I got from my brother when I became a weblos.

 

Kickin' It Old School

[desertrat77]

Good thoughts, Platy'.

 

I think you captured the spirit of scouting.