a new-new uniform shirt

[Lisabob]

I heard the other night that BSA is issuing yet another new uniform shirt (not clear what is changing this time around). I also heard that some councils (ours) are telling folks that they must buy this latest version of the shirt to staff certain training courses and to attend Jambo 2013.

 

Now honestly, I don't like the uniform shirts much to begin with. But setting that aside, I would like to know: WHY? Do you find the rationale that "everybody has to have the same version of the uniform shirt to be 'uniform'" to be compelling enough to justify shelling out yet another $30+ for this latest version? Is this just the BSA's version of planned obsolescence?

 

Grr.

 

And do we know what the latest changes are supposed to be? I think they already decided to remove the smokes pocket, right? Are there additional changes beyond that?

[moosetracker]

Sounds like your council is looking to rake in a profit by requireing something, when by BSA rules all the previous uniforms are still official.

 

Our woodbadge staff allows all official uniforms.. But doesn't want the new green wool jacket/shirt on staff yet.. People thought I had a case to argue about not being able to choose green over red.. But, I did end up buying red.. I'll match hubby, and I figure if times get better & I do want the green jac/shirt later on I could buy that, but not the BSA red jacket..

 

Who know my son is crabbing because he likes the red over the green(but for some reason thinks he should not own a red jacket until after he retires as a SM (he isn't even a SM yet).. So if I keep mine neat enough, I may have a hand-me-down for him 30 years from now..

 

Son gets weird ideas, just because our troop gave the red jacket to the last 2 retiring SM, he thinks that's when you get the jacket.. But, I doubt when our current SM leaves they will continue the tradition. If he does ever become SM it may be to a different troop with different traditions.. And his father, nor I, nor half the people with the jacket are retired SM's..

[liquidzoo]

Hopefully it's just the smokes pocket that's impossible to sew a position patch onto (for me, anyway, I can't sew very well and usually ask my wife to do it with her sewing machine).

 

I'd also be ok if they were going to go back to a flag patch that looked and felt like a patch rather than a sticker.

[KC9DDI]

Lisabob - Does your council have its own council-owned Scout Shop by any chance?

 

I think the BSA is kind of shooting themselves in the foot to some extent, because with each new uniform that comes out, the members become less and less "uniform," according to the strict definition of the term.

 

I can see some reasoning behind wanting training staff, for example, to truly be "uniform" by wearing only a single style of BSA uniform. But, I think that since the BSA created the problem by coming out with multiple different uniforms over just a few years, its not fair to volunteers to be asked to purchase a new outfit every couple years. I would say that if its that important to your council that you all have the same uniform, then the council should provide them to you, but we all know that won't fly!

 

On one level I'm kind of glad to see the BSA attempt to design the uniform to be more outdoor-friendly. I think they've had some success in certain areas (switchback pants), and kind of missed the mark in others. And I personally don't think the cost of the uniform is that outrageous (in fact, the cost of some pieces of the uniform have decreased over the past several years). But coming out with a new uniform so often in a short time frame isn't helping create an actual "uniform" appearance across Scouts and Scouters - and being expected to purchase a new uniform every time it changes is clearly inappropriate.

[Tampa Turtle]

I think the rich kids will buy the latest uniform parts to show off in front of the others. I think it defeats keeping a group "uniform". I am discouraged by this...

[Old_OX_Eagle83]

The only new uniform I know of, is an update of the high end uniform worn mostly by pros. Dont bother with that one. As far as forcing you to buy a new uniform to participate, Id not stand for that. BSA uniform policy is made by two groups, National Council and a units Charter Org Local Council is neither. With my unit I wear the current (centennial uniform). When in other roles, Ive been known to wear vintage pieces, and just picked up a arrow and rings vintage explorer shirt Im going to setup and use. Once uniform, always uniform.

[nugent725]

I heard about the new uniforms maybe a month or so ago. It seems that there are several changes, due to so many complaints about the Centennial uniforms. First, the American flag and Boy Scouts of America strip, are going back to being actual patches (as opposed to this screen-print style they have now). They have removed the smokes...er, "electronics" pocket. Finally, the uniform material is no longer 100% nylon, I believe its going back to a poly blend. This last change is great, because the Centennials are impossible to keep from getting wrinkled. However, they are keeping the same buttons as the centennial shirt (same color as body, without fleur de lis) and the velcro, 3d style pockets.

 

Personally, in my opinion, I still prefer the ODL uniforms, I can't stand the Centennial ones...and regretted buying it, as soon as it came in the mail. I also prefer the red and white look as opposed to the greens, but that's neither here nor there. Like Old_OX said: once uniform, always uniform...so nobody has the authority to mandate to you that you are wearing an out of date uniform, it doesn't matter.

[KC9DDI]

BSA uniform policy is made by two groups, National Council and a units Charter Org Local Council is neither.

 

Except in the case where a council charters a unit, as is common in the cases of camp staff and similar groups. In general, I would think its acceptable for the council to set uniforming expectations for council-level events. I'd draw the line at requiring Scouters to purchase a new uniform when they already have a legitimate uniform.

 

Once uniform, always uniform.

 

I think that's actually another symptom of the same problem. I think that the main purpose of having a uniform (noun) is should that Scouts and Scouters have a uniform (adjective) appearance. The BSA at a national level continues to create obstacles to reaching this goal. On side of the spectrum is the fact that a uniform changes and adjustments are rolled out relatively frequently. Thus, rather than having a couple years transition between 2 distinct uniform styles, you get this prolonged period of Scouts and Scouters mixing and matching various pieces of various uniform styles. The result is a very haphazard image of a groups of Scouts, all of whom may technically be wearing regulation uniforms, but the whole picture is anything but "uniform" in the sense of the dictionary definition of the word.

 

The other side of the spectrum is the policy that Old_OX_Eagle brought up - Once uniform, always uniform. I think the spirit of this policy is to address the problem that Lisabob originally brought up - so that Scouts and Scouters cannot be expected to purchase a new uniform every time the design changes. I don't think it was intended to encourage the purchasing of an "old style" uniform after a new design has begun being distributed. It would seem reasonable that if you're in a position to acquire a new uniform anyway, that you would purchase the current design.

 

There's several reasons that we utilize a uniform in Scouting. I don't think that being able to show how a given outfit is a valid uniform based on technicalities and loopholes is one of those reasons. I would say its more important for a group of scouts to have a uniform appearance as a whole group, rather than individual Scouts or Scouters to technically be in uniform individually. Granted, it is very difficult to achieve this goal due to some uniform policy decisions made at a national level.(This message has been edited by KC9DDI)

[Basementdweller]

I was going to buy a new shirt to add to the rotation, two of mine are looking pretty ratty, well they are both pre-centinial........Guess I will wait for the new one......when is it due out????

 

 

[Eagledad]

I guess its only human, we complain about the uniforms and wish National would be more responsive, then we get irritated when they respond and we have to pay. Ford ran into this same problem when they only produced black cars.

 

Barry

[Eagle92]

Actually until the CUs came out in 2008, the ODL uniform had NOT changed much since it was created circa 1980, with the exception of the shorts and pants (first the shorts were very short and pants had cargo pockets on sides, then the removal of cargo pockets on pants and shorts lengthened about 1989, then small cargo pocket in front of short and pants about 1994).

 

I personally think whoever designed the new uniforms didn't think it through properly hence the decision to redo them. Heck you can tell the entire CU roll out was FUBAR. Just look at info that came out when they were unveiled in refence to CS leaders and those Webelos deciding to wear the BS uniform. Less than a year after info on the new uniforms came out, and less than 9 months after they became available, people found out they bought the wrong color unit number insignia, and no red and tan trained strip was available for Cub leaders until March'09. Lots of ticked off parents and leaders in my neck of the woods.(This message has been edited by eagle92)

[liquidzoo]

I honestly hope they go to 1 color for unit numbers for both Cubs and Boy Scouts.

 

Don't get me wrong, I like the tan numbers; but if you're going to sell 2 types then National (or more likely the Councils and Districts) needs to educate the employees of the Scout Shops better. I was told by an employee at 1 that I was not allowed to buy the tan numbers since I am a Cub Scout leader.

 

That may be the case, but not allowed? Actively barring me from making a purchase? I told this to an employee at the main council office and she was stunned. I was also told by 1 employee that I could not buy the veteran bar I wanted for one of my shirts (that I am keeping from my old troop, just in case) and another said it was no problem.

[KC9DDI]

Liquid - I'm not certain, but I think that the regulations on unit number patches for cubs vs. boy scouts has changed sometime after the release of the centennial uniform?

 

I worked at my council's scout shop during high school for a couple years, and as far as not allowing people to purchase things goes: that would actually come up fairly regularly. As a general rule we would not sell award badges and pins unless the unit had submitted paperwork, or there was a record of the scout having earned the award. This may not be enforced very consistently from store or store, or even within a store, and at the store I worked at we would often make reasonable exceptions for certain items. We were fairly lenient on most Cub scout awards, but more strict on things like Eagle badges and various knots.

 

From what I understand, we reserved the right to NOT sell any item if it was obviously going to be used inappropriately. I remember a couple issues where we were specifically instructed not to allow certain individuals to purchase uniform pieces from us.

 

I'm definitely not saying that this was an appropriate way to handle your case of unit number patches, but there are some legitimate reasons for doing so.

[liquidzoo]

As I said, it certainly may be the case; but I have not heard of not being allowed to purchase a patch (aside from rank patches and some knots, as you said). I'm not sure that the Uniform Police would come to get me for having the wrong color unit numerals, they'd be far more likely to question my OA flap (perfectly acceptable, even for a cub scout leader, I checked).

 

Still have to buy my veteran bar, provided they even have them in stock...I can't imagine there are many troops that have just celebrated their 101st anniversary.

[nugent725]

To get a little bit more back on topic...

 

The new shirts actually are already available. As I said, I read about it a month or so ago on something online, and I checked Supply Division's website, and there it was.

 

http://scoutstuff.org/BSASupply/ItemDetail.aspx?cat=01RTL&ctgy=PRODUCTS&c2=UNIFORMS&C3=USHIRTS&C4=&LV=3&item=695BSSSS&prodid=695BSSSS^8^01RTL&

 

It appears as though its more like the De La Renta uniforms than the centennial uniforms. Also, I was wrong about the "3D pockets", they removed them as well.