half uniforming

[Papadaddy]

I'll never forget my original SM fundamentals training. The esteemed Scouter (who passed 2 years ago) met us after lunch wearing a "half uniform"...sliced down the middle (midsagittal plane, for you biologists). THe right half was a perfect official scout uniform, complete with 7 rows of earned square knots, and the left half was a plaid flannel shirt and blue jeans. A seamstress friend of his made it up for him. His point...if "half a uniform is ok, it doesn't matter how you slice it". Everyone agreed it looked ridiculous. Point taken. At the next session, I had my scout pants on.

[Life-Scout-Ldr]

I have read several of these posts and both sides have valid arguments. Personally I think that the neckerchief is more important for the scouts to wear than the pants. By wearing a uniform from the waist up they are not saying they are only half A**ed scouts.

 

Kids grow, and they are hard on clothes. The uniform shirt is easier to deal with as it can come off when activites are being done.

 

If a scout is thrifty then why does it cost so much to uniform a kid "properly"? Are non scout green pants a better option? Is this against rules?

 

Some people just don't have the money, and some units don't have the money or resources to outfit evey scout with pants.

 

If a scout wears the pants with any other shirt you wouldn't think about them being scouts, but if a scout wears the shirt with any other pants they are still very recognizeable as a scout.

 

Even though I wear a full uniform (an adult who is less likely to outgrow, or be too rough on the clothes) I will not expect my youth to wear anything but from the waist up. That means a belt which also means they need belt loops so they can wear it. I would never in a million years make any kid wear those horrible things they call scout socks either. They are impractical at the least since they are so against what it means to be thrifty as a scout. They are expensive, and who wants to wear them on an activity at that price.

 

When I was a youth and worked summer camp staff I had what we called sock dickies. We only had so many pair of the socks and they get worn quickly. We cut off the soles and put them over socks that were affordable and no one could tell the difference.

 

If uniforming is supposed to keep judgments out then the prices need to come down. Right now a full uniform says to me that either our whole unit has money, or that kid's parents do.

 

In the end when it comes down to it my scouts are not any less scouts becuase they don't wear scout pants or socks. They are less scout like because the parents won't let the troop run as a boy led troop, and the leaders aren't doing anything about it except for me.

 

I am an ASM, but I can't do anything for them while I am deployed to some foreign country.

 

I also came up in a waist up troop as a scout in the 90's. I saw our troop do many great things as a troop, and our pattrols were very often very competitive in scout knowledge games at Camp-O-Rees. Our uniforms didn't win us those competitions, but our scout knowledge did. We had activity shirts that matched, as well as good uniform shirts.

 

As far as who should do their best to wear the uniform in whole I would say adult leaders. Leaders are looked up to in order to provide guidance and knowledge. Being a role model is part of that uniform.

 

I can't count how many times people have come up to me to ask a questions either about scouts, or what was going on at an event becuase I was in uniform, so it makes a leader stand out, and it is my duty to be that role. When I can I refer them to the scout that can answer that question though.

 

I may be just rambling about it, but uniforms are important, but they are just not so important that scouting should be affected by not having scout pants. Nor should we be so hung about a uniform when it comes to providing program to the scouts.

 

Respectfully,

 

Life-Scout-Ldr(This message has been edited by Life-Scout-Ldr)

[Callooh! Callay!1428010939]

I vote full.

 

But if it must be half, we have an important decision to make...

 

Should we wear the right half so that we keep "Boy Scouts of America" over the pocket?

 

Or should we wear the left half so that we keep the council patch and troop number on the left shoulder?

(This message has been edited by Callooh! Callay!)

[Life-Scout-Ldr]

Well when somone says it shouldn't matter how you slice it that is an erroneous idea. It very much matters. As I pointed out a scout is recognized by the shirt at the very least. I think it should be obivous that half unifomring should be waist up period.

 

I don't understand the push for the pants. Until recently the pants were actually optional. Currently, from what I have heard, the pants are now mandatory, but the scarf is optional. That doesn't even make sense. The only policies I have found on the uniform are outdated (yes even on the scouting.org link which was a supplied in the thread somewhere).

 

I would really like to see the newest policies in full. Most everything I find is specific about the Cub Scout Uniform. Even so it would't change my mind about how I feel about half uniforming. I believe this push to make pants mandatory is so that BSA can sell the overstock of pants they are accumulating because more and more units are going waist-up. Do I think it should be an indicator for council that something is wrong? Sure, but I don't think they should be psuhing it without looking at thescanrio more in depth.

 

Two ideas come to mind when I think about this scenario. One the pants aren't up with today's youth, so change the pants to suit that better (this they have done)

 

The second thought, especially if the trend continues, is maybe the prices are too high. Bring those prices down a lot more and people are more likely to buy.

 

If the trend still continues after doing the second thought above then maybe National isn't going to win on this one. Besides scouts, scouters, and parents are the customers here. It might be smart to find out why they don't buy the pants, or why unit leaders don't advocate wearing them.

 

Could they make a ruling that says the following commercially bought pants are okay to buy? I can often find a bargain at a store, but the apparel and program materials for scouting are not cheap. It is a rare occasion that I leave the Scout shop paying less than $100 for stuff, and I only pciked up 3 to 5 items. The customers need to be understood and the business model for the program tailored to get the customers to want to buy pants if that is such an important goal of the BSA.

 

My final thoughts here; A Scout is Thrifty (If you don't like the thriftiness take it out of the 12 point law.)

 

Respectfully,

 

Life-Scout-Ldr(This message has been edited by Life-Scout-Ldr)

[Jeffrey H]

"...and it is also more understandable that parents who are new to an organization like the BSA (as most cub parents are), may be more reluctant to buy their 8 year old a pair of $50 pants to be worn once a week."

Actually, the Cub Scout Switchback (zip-off) Pants are $24.99 and double as pants and shorts.  A much better value than in the past when the shorts by themselves were about $22.

[OldGreyEagle]

I am pretty sure the pants were always part of the uniform, least I always thought so

 

Time to dump the uniform, wear a neckerchief and be done with it

[drhink]

OGE - "Time to dump the uniform, wear a neckerchief and be done with it"

 

I think if you go around wearing just a neckerchief it would be pretty drafty, not to mention the unwanted attention you'd get from law enforcement...

[OldGreyEagle]

In the words of the immortal Ron Moody as Fagin in "Oliver"

 

"I think I'd better think this out again..."

[BadenP]

 

What is more important wearing half the uniform or giving the boys a quality program where they learn a variety of useful outdoor skills, good citizenship, learn how to be a leader, having unique adventures, and most important having a great time in the process? The answer is quite clear and IMHO to borrow a phrase from the Brits all you uniform police can just "bugger off". If certain of you are so worried about full uniforms then I wonder as to the real focus and quality of your program.

 

I just got back from a week long large ship cruise in the Carribbean with my Venturing crew, sailing in those calm waters, enjoying the sunsets and sunrises, eating freshly caught fish and forgetting about all the trivial stuff going on in the world and the petty arguments that go on in here. It gives you a whole new perspective on life and what is important or not. I highly recommend it to all of you who need to get a new lease on life, and to stop worrying about the half or full uniform cause in the greater scheme of things it is a trivial debate at best. Peace.

[FScouter]

I've often wondered why it is so important for some folks to put down those that wear a uniform and see it as a useful part of the program.

[BadenP]

Frank

 

You missed the whole point once again. In boy scout troops that do not require the official pants are the boys still identified as scouts with their shirts, neckers and hats, as much as those troops who wear the official pants? You bet they are, so the whole argument becomes moot. For those troops who want to be in full uniform more power to them, but it does not make them better scouts or make their program a better one.

 

Over 3/4 of cub packs do not require official pants and 1/2 to 2/3 of the troops do not require the official pants in the four councils I have been part of over the years. In spite of what you may think a full uniform does not make a troop program a better one, neither does it make their program a more "useful" one. That has been true since the beginning of scouting through the Depression and WWII when many boy scouts had partial to no uniform because of the poverty that exsisted. The country has now been in a major recession/depression for over 3 years now, in many households one or both of the parents are unemployed, money is tighter than it has ever been and you complain about full uniforms being the norm, you really need to get a grip on reality. Frank, your Norman Rockwell vision of boy scouts has never ever been a reality but more of an ideal.

[FScouter]

"The answer is quite clear and IMHO to borrow a phrase from the Brits all you uniform police can just "bugger off". If certain of you are so worried about full uniforms then I wonder as to the real focus and quality of your program."

 

It is abundantly clear from your many, many posts on the topic, that you hate uniforms, and have much contempt for anyone that sees any value in them. If you choose to not wear one, fine; no one is out to "get" you. Your "point" though is quite clear.

[BadenP]

Frank

 

Your argument is not only untrue but just plain foolish. Like most of your attacks you just want to fight and offer no credible support for your argument nor do you have even a basic understanding of what I was talking about in my posts. Then again you have been out of active scouting for so many many years now you have no curent experience with any phase of the current scouting program. I strongly suggest you learn to read a persons entire post and try to grasp its meaning, the best you are able, instead of pulling one sentence out of context, which you constantly do, and attack it. All I can say I am grateful you are not influencing any youth anymore, because you are truly out of touch with scouting and probably a lot else.

[bigbovine]

I really like what Life-Scout-Ldr had to say on this. I am really at odds with myself on Uniform. Boys and Leaders look great in full uniform. Boys can really wear out a nice pair of pants. All that aside, I was just looking at a local HAM sites pictures when I noticed a heading for scouts receiving their MB from them. I am sorry, but a few boys half unifomed along with the rest just in street clothes seems wrong. This is a time for representation and receiving something well earned, and thats all they can do. It looked like just a bunch of kids with a few scouts in there. All street would have looked better than a mixture. They could at least have worn a "class B" to show they represented their Troop. Are they embarrased to show who they are? I am not all that worried about the official shirt being worn all the time, but I do beleive we should be "IDENTIFIABLE" to the public.

 

[Life-Scout-Ldr]

@bigbovine. I understand your delima here. As leasders of Scouting we want to see our youth represent their scouting. The truth is most kids outside of scouting think scouts are dorks, and nerds, and whatever other cruel names they can come up with. Our youth may here that, or even see the uniforms we have as not being very cool.

 

So how do we make the uniform cool? The only thing units really have control over the look of is the Activity shirt. I spent a year trying to convince our troop leaders that they needed a new look and a cooler shirt. The boys had a hand in the design, and I found the best place to get them (mostly because it wouldn't have gotten done otherwise). The design looks really awesome and the boys like it.

 

You can get an idea for some designs at Classb.com which is where I started. A new design was developed and it was taken to a local screenprinter. The design had no copyrighted BSA logos on it so the screenprinter didn't need to request, and pay for licensing through BSA to make the shirts. We have done the same thing with our Pack Activity shirts as well.

 

The point is we need to get our youth on board and in the decision making process.

 

Most troops I have been a part of we wore full or waist up uniform to most meetings, and one meeting a month we wore the activity shirt. The current troop I am in is the opposite. We only wear the waist up uniform once a month, at court of honors, and while traveling to events and outings. Otherwise it is activity shirts. The boys made this decision with the adults consent.

 

The boys have t-shirt with a full front design on it.

 

The adults have polo activity shirts with right breast logos vs whole front logos like the boys, but it is cool. The troop boys have 2 different color shirts, and the adults have one color. the design is the same except for slight color variations for visibility on the shirts.

 

As for the pack we all have the pack activity T-shirt adult and youth, but we did something else cool we got hoodies with the design on them (one person decided she didn't want a hood so she has a sweatshirt, but that is okay). The hoodies are awesome and people wear them everywhere (mostly in the colder months of course). Those are all one color (navy blue) with one color design (yellow, or cub scout gold).

 

Be creative, put some interest back into the unit, and uniforms can be fun too. If we can get them to wear the activity ones then we can get them to wear the formal ones for more formal occasions.

 

When it comes down to it the boys are happy the adults are happy and we have representation of scouting the boys can be proud of. I have even heard talk that some of the boys wear these new shirts to school, which was unheard of before, as they would have been too afraid of the ridicule.

 

Pick your battles. The program is important, uniforming is important, but make decisions to keep people interested in coming back instead of causing problems that make people uncomfrotable to be in your unit, or to be a part of souting at all.

 

Respectfully,

 

Life-Scout-Ldr(This message has been edited by Life-Scout-Ldr)(This message has been edited by Life-Scout-Ldr)