half uniforming

[Old_OX_Eagle83]

Stosh, I was working my way through this thread and read your 3/22 post about the full uniform, and the salute. Do you have a source for this? Now I'm not asking because I doubt you, I'm asking because I like it, and want to implement it. A source I can site will make this easier to explain to others.

[BartHumphries]

According to Wikipedia, Boy Scouts used to salute each other, but saluting each other was made "optional" in the 70's (and seems to have basically been discontinued).

[jrdalys]

E92 - having been a Sea Scout in the early '80s (my ship was what they called a 'Navy' ship - one that did full uniforming with dress blues etc., close order drill etc.) I have some perspective on the 'bug' term. With the size of the patch, the 'first class anchor' kinda does resemble a beetle or other similar bug.

 

We used the 'bug' patches on three spots - white ones went on the 'dixie cup' white covers in the front, and blue ones covered the two stars on the flap of the 'crackerjack' dress blue uniform.

 

Sea Scouts at the time was interesting from a uniforming and program perspective: they officially recognized two types of groups - the 'Navy' type that I mentioned above, and the 'White'. The 'White' ships didn't particularly HAVE uniforms, and were mostly there to go sailing/play on the water. The 'Navy' ships felt like you were in the junior Coast Guard or Navy (where many of the guys went on to serve afterwards).

 

Great experience for me...but nothing like my old troop.

 

YMMV

 

-Sean

[SBLANCK]

I and my son will always wear a full uniform. I will not judge what others wear. If the BSA allows for this and that and doesn't really enforce anything what can you expect? The only thing that bugs me the most is the wearing of the neckerchief under my collar, I hate it! I do miss the red topped socks also from when I was a kid.

[BadenP]

Bart

 

I was a boy scout in the late 60's and no scouts ever saluted each other in our troop or at any district or council event. You need to take what Wikipedia says sometimes with a grain of salt.

[Stosh]

Or, you could save the salt for corn-on-the-cob.

 

Handbook for Boys, 1952, p. 46: "The Scout Salute is used to salute The Flag of the United States of America. Use it when you are in uniform, instead of tipping your hat. You give the Scout salute when you approach a Scout leader, before you speak to him. A salute as you leave him is courteous too."

 

Scout Handbook, 1999, p. 20: "The Scout salute is a form of greeting that also shows respect. Use it to salute the flag of the United States of America. You may also salute other Scouts and Scout leaders."

 

Regardless of what Wikipedia says, BSA Publication is clear. Saluting others has been around in BSA publications for 100 years. It might be a bit watered down over the past 50 years, but it is still there. Maybe it isn't the salute that has disappeared, but the courteous respect it conveys has.

 

Your mileage may vary,

 

Stosh

[BadenP]

stosh

 

The BSA removed the requirement to salute because of it being too closely allied with military protocol during the early years of Vietnam and the antiwar sentiment prevailing in this country at the time.

 

If you think about it it was kind of an anachronistic custom to begin with, the BSA was never meant to be a paramilitary youth organization. Times change and so do the customs.

[Stosh]

I grew up in the 60's/70's and it was customary for people to be anti-Vietnam and show disrespect. BSA has stood up against the atheist's argument, against the gay argument and they did so with the military argument back in "the day".

 

One can argue all they wish on this subject and point out to me a ton of anecdotal cases where troops have ceased to use the salute except for flags, yet BSA literature still has respectful saluting of others in the explanation of the salute.

 

And yet if one wishes to question anachronistic customs?, why not start with the uniform. That smacks of military.... Heck, the boy's are buttoning them up only after they come in out of the public eye so as to be ready for opening flags, and have them off again before they leave back into the public eye. Heck, my council camp has no-uniform day for flags at summer camp. It can't be all that important to these people. Oh, yes, and they still use the Scout Salute without the uniform..... People can make up all kinds of rules to be convenient to "the current circumstances."

 

The left-handed handshake is basically gone too. It's more of a gotcha joke than a real handshake, and they have changed it around so much no one really knows what format to use.

 

And although it's traditional, there really is no need for opening and closing flags either. Youth do it very seldom at no other time except Scouts. Usually it's just the stand up for the Anthem and not really a ceremony.

 

I, too, can cite hundreds of exceptions on the subject of saluting, but I can only quote the one source and that came out of the 1999 BSA Scout Handbook, page 20.

 

A lot of the old customs were meant as a way of expressing social graces. Handshake use to close contracts, greet people, etc. Taking off one's had to touching the brim. etc. were all ways of expressing social courtesy. Now that the customs have become anachronistic, I'm thinking the respect they used to convey has gone by the way-side as well.

 

If anyone has a beef with it, they can take it up with Irving.....

 

Stosh

[BadenP]

Hey stosh

 

No need to get your knickers in a twist. Many of the old time honored traditions and scoutcraft skills of the past have fallen by the wayside over time and will continue to do so as our culture and youth continue to change. Have these changes been right or beneficial, that is for each individual to decide. Our high tech and fast paced culture of today looks at many things from the past as being obsolete or insignificant in todays world and this outlook has to continued to change and reshape the BSA, like everything else, whether for better or worse remains to be seen.(This message has been edited by BadenP)

[Stosh]

My knickers aren't twisted. I was only quoting National BSA in their most recent publication. Of course everyone can make their own decisions as to how they wish to show respect or not, that's not the problem.

 

Yes, BSA is changing, and everyone has an opinion on whether or not it is beneficial. I see it as moving from natural open spaces to Sesame Street. After all that's what these people, and for the most part, their parents grew up on.

 

While it is maybe no longer a tradition to salute other scouts, it is no longer traditional to do the scout handshake and most youth prefer knuckle bumping. So be it. I'm sure there are a lot of things going by the wayside, like hat tipping, etc., but until BSA drops it from what is being taught to the youth for a TF requirement, it still holds valid along with the Scout Sign and Handshake.

 

The handshake and salute in our culture have been around since the Middle Ages, I'm thinking it's going to take a while before it goes completely away. After all, when the Flag Code of the USA was first introduced, men would stand at attention, with their hat on if there was one present, hands at their side, to show respect to the flag. Only women and children put their hands over their heart.

 

Times change....

 

Your mileage may vary,

 

Stosh

[Porteiro]

I have never owned uniform pants/shorts since I was 12 years old. Despite being active in Scouting for much of my life, I've never felt the lack, nor have I ever been in a situation where a sizable percentage of people wore the full uniform.

[Lisabob]

So the other day my late-teen son said to me: Mom, what am I going to do when I'm too old to be a boy scout and I've outgrown my scout pants? Maybe we should stock up on some bigger pairs now, while I'm still allowed to buy them.

 

 

Someone in the supply division of the BSA must have gotten their wings right about then.

[allenj]

Back in the mid fifties when I was a Scout, most of our Leaders were Vets of WWII. It wasn't that long after the war and the military experience was still somewhat fresh. I remember on the way to a winter campout our Scoutmaster wore a German fur-lined hat he got at the Battle of the Bulge.

At any rate, our troop consisted of four patrols.We had a formal formation to begin and end every meeting. Patrol Leaders saluted and reported to the SPL who did an about face and salutrd and reported to the SM. We also learned basic drill movements.

(I have seen early Scout Manuals on Basic Drill for Scouts)

Why are we so afraid of using anything remotely Military when it makes commonsense in working with a group of boys? I remember that it added a sense of formality and dignity to or troop. Also, Uniform inspection was standard at every meeting.

[drhink]

Wasn't this post about half uniforms? Maybe it's time to spin off a new thread about hand salutes and handshakes...

 

I think the thread title says it all: "half uniform[]". Seems pretty clear by definition what it is or isn't. Just a scout shirt or just scout pants doesn't make a full uniform. Personally, I'd prefer to see a scout come to a meeting in half a uniform instead of no uniform, and full uniform over half a uniform. If I see a scout wear his scout shirt with his baseball pants knowing he came directly from his game, it shows the kind of effort we all hope for. But a unit setting their standard at something below full uniform is simply wrong. I mean, what do you do - go take a black marker and redact the parts of each scout's handbook that explains the scout uniform?

 

There's a good philosophy used by the American Red Cross: "Teach to the standards, but measure to the objectives." In the case of BSA uniforms, the standards are spelled out in the Insignia Guide, item no. 33066. Uniform inspections - a thing of the past for the most part - were supposed to help educate members of the standards. But the OBJECTIVE is not and never was/is "perfect uniforms". There are four objectives of the BSA uniform: 1. Personal equality, 2. Identification, 3. Achievement, and 4. Personal commitment.

 

So you might be thinking, "But isn't half uniforming OK if our whole unit does it the same way?". From your unit's standpoint, you're meeting the objective of making all members "personally equal" in attire. But when you go to the district level, council level, or national level activities, you quickly see you are not the same as everyone else regarding the objectives of consistent identification in the community and quite possibly the demonstration of your personal commitment. BSA is bigger than any individual unit, and it's important to see the forest through the trees in that regard. As for allowing substitutions for the official pants, I have no problem with it as long as I can't tell the difference from across a room. I'm not going to ask to see "proof" they are official. (On an aside note, the current official leader wool blend uniform pants - made in USA - have absolutely no permanent BSA marking anywhere - not even the inside tag!) Again, the objective is to look "like every other troop" as far as uniform shirt and pants are concerned. You get to show your unit identity through neckerchiefs and hats, but that's it. Individual achievement is displayed by properly wearing earned rank and awards. The only area there is some room for personal "flair" is your scout-related belt and buckle and perhaps your shoes.

 

When a unit has condoned lax uniforming for a period of time, it can be a real uphill battle to get it back on track. Even after showing pictures and video from a national jamboree, you find people (generally parents) that resist full uniforms as the norm. If you have managed to overcome this resistance, I'd love to hear the things you did that worked (and maybe what didn't). I'm spinning off a separate thread for this topic, so look for it.

 

For the anti-uniform crowd - you know who you are - the objectives of uniforming are published policies. They are not "guidelines" nor "optional" - they are part of the national Rules and Regulations. Please read this page: http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/Media/InsigniaGuide/01.aspx Then, ask yourself if you are meeting all four objectives of the BSA uniform policy. And pay close attention to the line that says: "The leaders of Scoutingboth volunteer and professionalpromote the wearing of the correct complete uniform on all suitable occasions." I don't see any optional qualifiers such as 'some', 'might', 'maybe', 'half' or 'sometimes' in that sentence.

 

As for complaints about the uniform parts themselves, there are abundant threads regarding those gripes. I'm sure everybody - myself included - isn't 100% happy with every uniform part being sold today or the prices. But it's still our uniform and an integral part of our program. I feel the best way to "teach the standards" is through example by wearing it as correct as you're able. The full uniform is not optional in light of the stated objectives. It's not some obsession with creating a Norman Rockwell landscape - it's an obsession with keeping scouting around another 100 years. The uniform details - the standards - will continue to evolve and change, but the objectives are timeless.

[Lisabob]

Since I'm the original poster and since this thread has wandered quite a lot in the last 3 months, I just want to mention that my original point here was that it is now more common for boys in troops to favor the uniform pants over the uniform shirts.

 

If BSA could do for the shirts, what it has done for the pants (make them relevant to what boy scouts actually do), then we might see a move toward wider implementation of "full uniform" troops, too.

 

Just saying.