Uniform (rant)

[Beavah]

Yah, we tie ourselves in da most amusin' intellectual knots tryin' to justify bad behavior sometimes. I might actually start to buy into Fscouter's cognitive dissonance thing.

 

If the troop said "No", SR540, would yeh show up at their meeting anyways because you "have a job to do?" Of course not. You recognize that it's their time, their space, their meeting and you are requesting an invitation to come into their scouting "home". Yeh don't just show up uninvited. You are guests at their meeting.

 

How you should behave as good guests, how you should dress, etc. is on you. How they should behave as good hosts is on them. This thread isn't talkin' about how the election team should have behaved, I think we mostly agree on that. We're talking about how the host unit's adults should have behaved toward their guests.

 

Hospitality is one of da oldest, most important "Timeless Values". In just about every religion and culture on da planet yeh are to treat a visitor with the utmost generosity and courtesy - as though you were welcoming your deity who is disguised as a lowly human.

 

These scouters failed that test, and did not live up to their Oath or our Timeless Values. . I get their intentions, but they were misguided. They were focused on the behavior of others, when in choosing their actions they should have been focused on their own behavior. If da pastor of their CO had shown up, would they have sent him off to da uniform closet? Of course not. They would have focused on how they should behave in welcoming the IH as guest.

 

Courtesy means yeh treat even the lowliest as yeh would the king.

 

Beavah(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[BadenP]

 

I think Beavah is 100% correct in this matter, and I bet it will be a very very long time before that troop sees the OA again, what a loss for the boys in the troop. Rude behavior is always rude and never justifiable under any circumstances Brent, you being from the south should understand that better than anyone.

[SR540Beaver]

Yet the original poster said in his second post, "Also talked to the accompanying father last night, Decided how the first SM handled it was fine. He was discrete and did not try to embarrass the boys. It was more like a learning moment, that they should think about their appearance and how they represent the OA."

 

He was helpful, friendly, courteous and kind.

 

The grumpy old SM, not so much....but we are not made privy to whether he chastised them in front of the troop or not. I would assume if he had, that transgression would have been mentioned in the post.

 

The election team realized they were in the wrong, the SM was correct and they have made a change in their policy for the future. No harm, no foul.

 

Edited to add: I reread the original post. The former SM sounded off to the adult with the team and not the boys.(This message has been edited by sr540beaver)

[SR540Beaver]

Beavah: "If the troop said "No", SR540, would yeh show up at their meeting anyways because you "have a job to do?" Of course not. You recognize that it's their time, their space, their meeting and you are requesting an invitation to come into their scouting "home". Yeh don't just show up uninvited. You are guests at their meeting."

 

Nope, wouldn't show up unannounced, but we will keep contacting them and trying to convince them to let us come at their convenience. Because that is part of our job.

 

We've had far too many of the reluctant SM's say, "we'll ask the boys if they are interested and let you know". We respond, "no, don't ask them. Hold an election. Let the team come tell them about OA. No one has to vote who doesn't want to and no one elected has to complete their Ordeal. This is an opportunity for their peers to honor them, why would you NOT want to hold an election? Hold the election and let the chips fall where they may." Educating these SM's and building a relationship is key. We have 21 troops in our district. In 2009, we were only "invited" to 9 troops. In 2010 it was 16. This fall, we hope to increase it even further. Part of our job is to provide them with election teams and to do our best to impress the heck out of them when they allow us to come. We won't come if they say no, but we will keep working on getting that first date.

[BadenP]

SR540

 

Sorry but your logic seems a little shaky at best.

 

"No harm no foul"

"The SM was right and the OA team was wrong"

 

Maybe in your world SR540 but yelling at the boys or the OA adult was uncourteous to say the least, and the boys in the troop LOST the opportunity to find out about the OA because of a closed minded, tight assed, uniform police mentality SM. He chose the wrong place and the wrong time to display his holier than thou attitude and there was absolutely NO excuse for his conduct.

[DLister]

BadenP: I respectfully suggest you reread the original post. Nowhere was it said that anyone yelled at the boys. Also, the election did continue after the team checked the uniform exchange room for pants.

[SR540Beaver]

Thank you DLister.

 

BadenP, my logic is not nearly as shaky as your reading comprehension. What happened has been blown way out of proportion to what was originally posted and then followed up on by artjrk. He even said the SM provided a teaching moment and that the team would add full uniforming to their standard practice in the future. No harm, no foul.(This message has been edited by sr540beaver)

[Beavah]

We've had far too many of the reluctant SM's say, "we'll ask the boys if they are interested and let you know". We respond, "no, don't ask them. Hold an election. Let the team come tell them about OA.

 

Yah, hmmm... not to change the topic, but it seems the topic has run its course anyways...

 

Why would the OA representatives want to talk the SM into undermining the PLC?

 

It's the PLC's role to plan and run a meeting. So of course the SM should ask the PLC boys if they are interested in changing their meeting plans for the night to incorporate an OA presentation.

 

I confess I find that the OA undermining youth leadership and the patrol leaders to be far more upsetting than the OA showing up in just shirts.

 

Who was making these calls anyway? Da OA youth or the adults?

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[Hawkrod]

The calls in our District were made by the OA youth leaders. Each boy got part of teh list. My son had to call each SM (some several times because he left messages and never heard back). The SM was asked to have somebody call back if they wanted an election so the PLC could plan a date and time. In many cases he was told to just show up on their next meeting night other times he was told they were not interested or that the CA had already spoken with them (usually at RT or at another event). I thought it was very good for the boys to be calling to set up the elections but I think the SPL or ASPL should really be teh contact point it is just that we have phone list of adult leaders but not youth leaders. I am not sure how the camping promotion meetings were set up but my son is participating in one this week.

[SR540Beaver]

Beavah: Why would the OA representatives want to talk the SM into undermining the PLC?

 

I'll ignore the cheap shot since I believe I've firmly established myself as a proponent of boy led over the last 3,600+ posts and simply answer the questions.

 

No one is talking the SM into undermining the PLC. Maybe you have the contact information for each SPL in your district, but we don't. Troops tend to protect that kind of information for youth protection purposes. What we do have is the contact information for the adult leadership, so that is naturally our starting point.

 

Beavah: It's the PLC's role to plan and run a meeting. So of course the SM should ask the PLC boys if they are interested in changing their meeting plans for the night to incorporate an OA presentation.

 

Of course it is their job to plan and run a meeting. The SM wasn't talking about asking the PLC if they were interested in changing their meeting plans to hold an election. The SM was talking about quizzing the troop as a whole as to whether or not there was any interest at all in the Order of the Arrow. So, you have an SM with no knowledge or interest in the OA half heartedly asking boys who know nothing about OA if they want to get involved in the OA. Any idea what the answer is? I do. Been there, done that. We first have to sell the SM if we are ever going to get a crack at gaining access to the SPL and PLC to get a trained lection team in to explain the OA and hold an election. Our point to the SM is that the OA is a legitimate program of the BSA. It is not a "Troop" program. It is an "individual" program that allows the youth of the Troop to honor individuals in the troop. Why would they have no interest in honoring those who exemplify the Oath and Law and are outstanding campers? The boys can abstain from voting if they have no interest and the candidate can elect not to complete their Ordeal. Why wouldn't an SM. SPL or Troop want to hold an election? Hold the election and let the chips fall where they may.

 

Beavah: I confess I find that the OA undermining youth leadership and the patrol leaders to be far more upsetting than the OA showing up in just shirts.

 

Well, now you know that you don't need to be upset.

 

Beavah: Who was making these calls anyway? Da OA youth or the adults?

 

Depends on the situation. Where the OA is established and understood, the youth. Where we have a reluctant SM, the adults start the process before turning it over to the youth. For the actual election, we adults transport boys, shake hands with folks and make small talk while the boys do their job.

[Beavah]

We respond, "no, don't ask them. Hold an election. Let the team come tell them about OA.

 

Yah, hmmm... So it still sounds like you're standing by da quote above. No cheap shot intended, just a sense that a unit leader could take from the tone of your comments.

 

To my mind, of course the SM should ask the boys. It's their time and their meeting.

 

Why not have one of the boys call and ask for da SPL's contact information, sayin' he'd like to make a brief presentation to the PLC at their next meeting?

 

And if yeh really have a reluctant SM, "just hold an election" isn't goin' to win him or her over, eh? Nor is da implication that they have no interest in honoring their best kids. Yeh need to ask for a cup of coffee to listen to the SM and figure out what's up and how to address it. Worries about losing kids? Concern about secret societies?

 

OA like every district or council function is a service to units, eh? An optional supplement or enhancement of their program for youth. Yeh gotta come at it that way. Might be they don't want da service and are doin' just fine honoring their kids on their own. Might be yeh haven't pitched da benefits to the unit in the right way. Might be last year da lads didn't show up in full uniform .

 

Don't come at it with da sense that OA is important. Come at it with a sense that their troop is important.

 

Beavah

 

[SR540Beaver]

Beavah,

 

Do you really want me to post the entire 45 minute to one hour discussion I have with some of these SM's concerning what OA is, what we do and what the benefit to the boy and the troop is just so we can get our foot in the door to present to their boys? Do you really read one line in a post and draw all the wrong conclusions? We've got one SM who thought the OA was a cult and refused to let us anywhere close to the troop. Doing an end run around him to the youth leadership would have been the wrong thing to do. My elections Adviser was this SM's TG at WB and spent countless hours on the phone and at RT's and other events telling him all about what OA is, the service aspect, that an Arrowman's first duty is to his unit, that we aren't in the business of stealing older boys, that we provide additional opportunities of service and leadership that will benefit the troop and keep older boys involved longer, etc. He came this close to letting an election be held, but didn't. The BOTTOM line of all of that friendly chatter with SM's is, "just let us come do an election" and if we don't live up to the hype, you can tell us to get lost next year. The SPL may run things, but the SM is responsible for the program side of the house and we will not cut him out of the equation. We need his buy-in to get it in front of the PLC so they can consider it. This ain't my first rodeo. I wasn't selected as a CA because I was clueless or worked poorly with people. I'm rebuilding a Chapter where we had 9 elections out of 21 troops in 2009 and thru hard work and building relationships, we increased it to 16 elections in 2010. We hope to do even better this year. We lost a few of our most experienced boys last year and are losing a few more this year who are moving away to college. Right now, getting elections scheduled is a joint effort between adults and newer, younger youth who are gaining experience this year. I hope that is enough detail to calm your fears of how our Chapter operates. I do have a day job and I can't post nuanced essays.

[SeattlePioneer]

SR540

 

 

Of course Scout units are always going to be losing our most experienced boys!

 

My district has put heart and sould into restarting the OA chapter, with moderately good results. But I doubt if he could step away from it without it collapsing.

 

OA chapters need to be able to build their own adult leadership cadre, not just Scouts. Have you been able to do that with your program, and if so what are your methods?

 

I was tapped out by OA as a Scoutmaster circa 1983. I attended the Ordeal but never attended other OA activities. I don't recall being invited to such activities, and in any case I was too busy with my Scout Troop. I imagine that's all too common.

 

And of course it's no different than finding volunteers for other district activities, although OA does have something of a pipeline to adults being selected for membership.

 

Is that resource used effectively?