Uniform (rant)

[Beavah]

But I have to ask which standard is more important -- A Scout is Courteous or A Scout Wears Official Pants?

 

Yah, this is the rub, eh?

 

For my part, I wonder what da SM and former SM would have done if the OA election team had behaved in the same way they did.

 

"I'm sorry, Mr. Scoutmaster and Former Scoutmaster, it's not your place to be speaking to us. That's properly the role of your SPL. And what's with the belly? Yeh don't look like a proper scouter at all. Don't yeh take "physically strong" seriously in this troop? Since you clearly don't care about the BSA's standards for youth leadership or values, your troop isn't worthy enough for us to conduct an OA election at this time.

 

Now, if it were up to us, we'd ban your troop from OA until you have been (re-) trained and meet the standard expected of a truly youth-run program and you can actually pass da height/weight requirements. But if the two of you stand over there in the corner facing the wall quietly for the rest of the meeting, then I guess we will tolerate this breach for now. But dude, lay off the donuts and hit the gym. Your appearance and behavior is an embarrassment when yeh should be settin' an example."

 

I wonder how those adults would have felt. Do unto others and all that, eh?

 

Beavah

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[boomerscout]

Most all hobbies cost money, and the Scouts need to be made to understand that. Our first year Scouts are told not to buy any uniform pieces until it's time for summer camp due to sudden growth spurts. Their first priority is to start assembling gear. For Scout tees we screen print our own -- much cheaper and enhances troop cohesion.

Our uniform closet is located in a spare room at a Scouter's home - keeps the uniforms clean, and the Scouter has time & daylight to check for mising buttons, etc. She does go after the Scouts to donate their outgrown uniforms - even from other troops as we have been known to donate to them. Any uniforms we find at charitable thrifts are generally free to us because of all the community projects we do (including for the thrifts)

When our troop is feeling flush, we do present each new T'foot with a (new) Scout shirt, necker, and troop numbers/council strip. The patrol presents the patrol emblem as a further bonding effort.

After that first summer camp, we tell each Scout that we expect a full uniform, and that he is to set aside a dollar a week so he can purchase what pieces he needs.

Boys Life frequently ran money-earning articles in the 40s and 50s. They are available for viewing online.

For those who attempt to slide by with "little Johnny needs to give all the money he makes to his family as they are destitute", we have their own peers show them how working for yourself brings in a lot more of the moola than working for wages. Therefore, problem solved.

We hardly ever tell prospective Scout parents the total first year costs as it is likely to drive them off. It is sometimes hard to get them to understand most of these costs are met through trade, barter, troop fund-raisers, patrol fund-raisers, and the Scout's own efforts.

Car wash season is soon here -- Hooray!

[Stosh]

I would think that in the future, this troop would indicate to the OA "guests" that they come prepared and that means properly uniformed. Being OA, I would think it would also be appropriate if they were in Indian regalia as well. Either way, the impression given to the potential new members sets a standard by which one is challenged to be part of the honor society of BSA. If the OA members coming for the elections are not prepared, they would need to be asked politely to come back at a later date when they are. Maybe OA should take the Be Prepared idea seriously.

 

I'm a firm believer that cutting someone some slack at times is appropriate, especially when there is just reason for them not knowing the rules. However, by the time one gets into OA, they should be fully aware of what's going on.

 

Reaching ideals is often times an impossibility, however, giving up and settling for second best along the way is not acceptable.

 

In the case mentioned originally, the OA boys should have said, "You are correct, we are not prepared. Is there a time when we can come back and do it properly?" At that point, I'm willing to bet the SM would have said, "Well, you're already here, but please, next time Be Prepared." End of discussion. Both sides of the issue realize the importance of the situation and if they take it to heart, there has been a good step forward for future situations. Even if the OA boys go back and put a note in their records that indicate that SM of Troop XX is a real uniform Nazi, at least when they come to elections, they will be forewarned and prepared.

 

Your mileage may vary,

 

Stosh

[Beavah]

Yah, so jblake, what do yeh think about the OA team who tells the SM and former SM to lose the belly, eh?

 

After all, "Reaching ideals is often times an impossibility, however, giving up and settling for second best along the way is not acceptable. "

 

If the adults can comment on da youth's appearance for not being properly dressed, then can the youth comment on the adults' appearance for not being properly fit?

 

"Sorry, Mr. Scoutmaster, you have no business being here looking like that. Come back when you meet the regular standard of the height/weight requirements." After all, by the time someone gets to be Scoutmaster, he or she should know what's going on, and doesn't deserve any slack.

 

Beavah

 

[FScouter]

Good argument Beavah. We have a rude intrusion by an ill-equipped OA team, setting a bad example for a well-uniformed troop, essentially undermining what the troop leadership has established. Condemn the troop's reaction to such rudeness with a hypothetical thought that the Scoutmaster is overweight? That justifies what the OA team did?

 

The troop should be applauded for pointing out to the OA team that their ill-prepared appearance does not live up to the standard for our organization. Had the troop been "polite" and kept quiet, the message that sends is of tacit approval for sloppy uniforming. Silence may be "polite" but shows weak integrity.

 

If that OA team feel so strongly about dismissing the uniform method with sloppy practices, they need to be prepared to take a little opposition from the other side.

[Beavah]

Nah, FScouter, we didn't have a "rude intrusion". We had an OA team who was invited to a troop to conduct an election. They were guests, offering a service for free.

 

If it's acceptable for the adults to point out problems with the outward appearance of their guests, it strikes me as being just as acceptable for the lads to point out problems with the outward appearance of their hosts. After all, fitness is an honest-to-goodness Aim of Scouting, not just a method.

 

Of course it doesn't matter what da topic is, eh? The adults had no business addressing the OA team in the first place. Where was the SPL? Is it OK for the OA team to tell the SM that he's runnin' a shoddy program because he doesn't understand youth leadership, and he should be standin' over in the corner? How about commenting that they must not be real boy scouts with high standards because it looks like all they're doin' is car camping?

 

Do unto others. If yeh feel it's acceptable to berate a young fellow who is taking his evening to come offer a service to your troop just because yeh don't like his pants, then surely it's OK if the young fellow comments on da other poor examples of scouting he sees from you during his visit. If yeh feel it's OK to insist on compliance from the lads, then it should be OK for the boys to insist on compliance from the adults.

 

No more OA team visits until the SM loses those 40 pounds and lets his SPL run da meeting.

 

Or, alternately, we could teach the lads courtesy by setting an example of courtesy ourselves, by welcoming 'em and thanking them for their time and service. Even if we don't like their pants.

 

Beavah

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[CalicoPenn]

Since I usually ran elections dressed in blue jeans, I probably would give the election teams a lot of slack. A lot of election teams are comprised of older scouts that are often running from one activity to another - in my day, it wasn't unusual to see the election team putting on a shirt while walking through the front door after having driven from an after school activity, or from a part time job, to a unit's meeting. In my case, I was in full uniform - Explorer Posts had options.

 

The only time we had a unit leader complain about how an election team was dressed was when they showed up not even wearing the shirt. Maybe our standards were lower at the tail end of the 70's, but as long as the team was at least wearing the shirt and sash, and clean jeans, no one had an issue. We did learn that one thing that helped mitigate the wearing of jeans in the eyes of the Scouts was by our wearing our "dirty" sashes - not only did we talk about how we provided service to our camps and to others, the sashes showed that we did.

 

I know that one of the methods of the Boy Scouts is uniforming. What I want to know is when did uniforms become required. If Scouts from one unit come in to mine, and aren't fully dressed, I'm not about to pass judgement, even if my unit is a full uniform unit.

 

 

 

 

[BrentAllen]

So Beavah, is that upscale restaurant being rude for offering you a dinner jacket because they require it, and you didn't wear one? This is the same issue here.

 

As for your hypothetical, you have it all wrong. The election team comes in at the rear of the building, where the SM is (at the back of the room). He speaks to the election team, since the SPL is involved with the program. The SM isn't fat, he just ran a half-marathon this past weekend. His Troop is very fit, as most of the boys run Cross-Country, inspired by their SM. They are completely and correctly uniformed. They have displays all over the walls from all their high adventure trips all over the country, and even outside the country.

 

These Troops exist. I wish you could see one some time.

[sherminator505]

That's great, Brent. I'm happy for you. I'd give you a pat on the back and an "Attaboy!", but you're so high in the saddle that I can't reach your back, and I doubt you'd hear me anyhow...

[Twocubdad]

Nah, FScouter.

 

Back to Hawkrod's rube neighbor showing up in jeans and a tee. You're polite and accepting while he's there, but that doesn't mean you can't talk bad about him after he leaves!

 

Seriously, our troop is usually pretty tight when it comes to uniform. Full field uniform when appropriate, including troop hat and necker. Invariably, there will be some troop at summer camp showing up for evening retreat with their Scout shirts unbuttoned and untucked over a dirty t-shirt and plaid shorts.

 

Those are the teaching moments I look for.

 

Even the coolest of the too-cool-for-school crowd has to take a bit of pride in how our troop looks versus the guys who look like they fell out the back of Jeff Spicoli's van. The number of compliments we get from other leaders and camp staff doesn't hurt.

 

While I would never do it in such a way it seems like I'm calling out or making fun of another troop, at another time I will remind out Scout of the sense of pride and unity we gain by looking like a troop.

 

If the SM is concerned the OA e-team's appearance undermines the troop efforts, it would be appropriate to address during the following week's Scoutmaster Minute or perhaps through the SPL and PLC. But I wouldn't do it if it weren't a positive thing, without pointing fingers or disparaging others.

 

Brent -- I don't go to restaurants like that either.(This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

[BrentAllen]

Sherm,

You owe that Attaboy to someone else, not me - the description isn't about our Troop - yet.

[Beavah]

 

These Troops exist. I wish you could see one some time.

 

Oh, I know a few, eh?

 

None of 'em are perfect, and they'd be the first to tell yeh so.

 

One thing's for sure, though. None of the ones I know would ever behave discourteously to guests, includin' an OA election team that showed up in just shirts.

 

Good troops take the Scout Law seriously, too.

 

The point of course was that even if the SM were a butterball, it would be inappropriate for the OA youth to behave in that way to the troop that was welcoming them. Just as it is completely inappropriate for the two scouters to behave in the way they did toward the boys.

 

Beavah

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[Hawkrod]

I am sorry but did the definition of courteous change? Courtesy does not mean you have to accept a situation. It means that you handle the situation properly. Turning away a person or asking them to change is not a discourteous act, how it is done determines if it is courteous or not. Courtesy is treating a situation politely and with respect not simply accepting something that is improper because the other party did not know better. I think maybe some people may not be fully aware of what courtesy actually means and may be confusing the concept.

 

As far as a dinner party at a home, yes, I have been at private parties in homes with dignitaries including Governors and the like. If the event is black tie it does not matter if it is in a home or a public function it is not appropriate to arrive improperly attired and allowing that person to attend could easily be construed as discourteous to everyone else attending.

 

I also have to wonder at Twocubdad's note about waitstaff. You say I should allow them to do the job but take it up with the caterer? Sorry, I could never allow that to happen. If they show up dressed inappropriately, it does not matter if it their bosses fault or theirs, they will not be allowed to work until dressed properly and that is not a discourteous act either.

 

I also equated OA with employees not because they are paid but because they are doing a job they committed to doing, they are not a guest that I invited to participate in my activity. They are coming to the Troops to do OA elections and camping promotions because it is their "job" not because they are our "guests" and maybe that is an issue of semantics. Those of us that participate in OA ceremony and unit functions beyond group gatherings and the like, do represent the OA to the units we provide service to (and that is why I equate it with a job) and have to maintain as high a standard as possible and if I am doing something wrong then both my son and I expect people to let us know otherwise we will continue to do it wrong and have those people talking behind our backs after we are gone! I will tell you that right after my son joined a ceremony team he arrived at an event in part of his regalia instead of a uniform and the CA let us know that it was not acceptable to do that. Lesson learned and we are better for it. We do try and set the example and the boys are expected to be the best of the best.(This message has been edited by Hawkrod)

[BrentAllen]

Beavah, no comment on the restaurant? I think the SM was doing the same thing, which is not being rude, but helpful. And being obedient would mean wearing the uniform of the group you belong to and are representing.

 

[SR540Beaver]

Election team invited? Maybe things are done differently elsewhere. In my neck of the woods, it is the Chapters who contact the Troops in their District and make a request to come do an election at the troop's convenience. We kind of invite ourselves. I've yet to have a Troop contact us first. We've never considered ourselves as guests of a Troop, but representatives of the OA coming to explain what we are and how an election is done. We are there to do a job and part of that job is setting an example, part of which consists of proper uniforming. Says so in the OA Guide for Officers and Advisers.

 

One of the problems I run into is SM's who don't know what the OA is and don't care and don't want to know. We had one who has refused to allow an election in his unit for years because the OA is a "cult". More than one person has tried to talk to him, explain what the OA is, what we do and to have his unit nominate him so he can see first hand. Nothing doing. He retired about a month ago and lo and behold, the new SM wants us to come do an election. I know some Lodges have declined and there is a lot of misunderstanding and confusion as to what OA is and does.

 

Simple communications is part of the answer. I'm in my second year as a Chapter Adviser. We created a Chapter website where people can subscribe and receive updates whenever we create new posts. I have developed am email distribution list with every chapter Arrowman address I have. My election teams are required to return with candidate email addresses so I know that candidates are getting timely info that SM's tend to forget to pass on. We produce a newsletter that gets posted online and handed out to each new member at Ordeal that lists any and every OA website address they could ever want.

 

We are proactive. We don't wait for invitations. We contact the units and let them know it is election season and ask when we can come do their election. So in a sense, we invite ourselves. As self invited "guests", doing a job, the obligation is on us to put our best foot forward and set an example to the troop and it's leadership that we are the kind of organization and members that they want to associate with and be like. Wearing a full uniform is a no-brainer for us.