Uniform (rant)

[SR540Beaver]

moosetracker,

 

I hear where you are coming from, but I still think a person stepping up....even a volunteer, has put themselves on a different playing field. Agreeing to help doesn't buy you indulgences, it means willingly accepting a responsibility. For the guys in my chapter, part of that is wearing the full uniform. If thet couldn't afford it, we'd work something out. When we hold our election team training, part of my speech consists of, "you will say yes sir, no sir, yes maam, no maam, please and thank you. You will not horse around. You will be professional in your attitude, actions and appearance. You will wear a full uniform. We represent the honor society of scouting and we will act like it. So far, I haven't had a single boy walk away.

 

I will say that we had a Unit Commish that didn't last very long with our unit. He showed up unshaven, in a wrinkled and stained uniform shirt with a pair of sweatpants on. We asked for a replacement.

[Twocubdad]

Blue jeans with a Scout shirt makes me absolutely insane. However...

 

The Scouts were doing what they had been taught to do. Frankly, artjrk, I don't care for your troop's intrepretation of the Uniform method. But then, the OA advisors and/or lodge officers should have included in e-team training something about uniform standards.

 

The SMs were totally out of line, including the guy who asked the boys to change. They were guests of the troop. Would you embarass a guest in your home by asking them to change pants before dinner? There are untolled ways in which this could have been handled more appropriately, including using the evaluation sheet e-teams give the SM at the end of every election.

[Beavah]

The SMs were totally out of line, including the guy who asked the boys to change. They were guests of the troop. Would you embarass a guest in your home by asking them to change pants before dinner?

 

Yah, I agree with TwoCubDad, eh?

 

Yeh treat guests and those givin' their time to you for free with the utmost courtesy. That's what honor requires, and these unit adults behaved dishonorably. Someone should do them the courtesy of pullin' 'em aside privately and letting them know, so they can learn and improve.

 

Yep, it's also a learning experience for the lads, about how to represent an organization and how to act courteously as guests, eh? Guests owe a duty of respect to a host by doin' their best to follow local custom. If yeh visit a Japanese household, yeh take your shoes off; in most (but not all) American households yeh remove your hat. If you're goin' to a full-uniform troop, yeh do your best to wear the full uniform. If you're goin' to a troop that does meetings outdoors, yeh wear outdoor clothing. Someone should do the boys the courtesy of pullin' 'em aside privately and letting them know, so they can learn and improve.

 

Of the two, I consider the former to be da worse offense. Adults should know better, and should be expected to give the better example. And in most traditions includin' the Judeo-Christian western tradition, courtesy to guests has always been a much stronger and more important value than courtesy to hosts.

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[Adam S]

I would expect someone representing the HONOR SOCIETY OF SCOUTING would not need to be told about being in uniform especially on official business.

 

So while the SM might have been more tactful I do not think I disagree with him. And heck offering them pants from his units uniform exchange is pretty nice...

[Gary_Miller]

The problem here is what the boys have been taught and its a big problem in a lot of troops.

 

In this case the troop these boys come from have decided that a "Full uniform(is)from the waist up as is normal and acceptable for our troop." This is the standard set by their troop so there is no incentive to get a Full Uniform.

 

I always hear the excuse that the reason for this is because of the costs. To that I say "Bull ucky". If this was a sports team the YM would purchase the proper uniform no matter the cost.

 

If we want our youth in full uniform then we have to set that standard in our units. We don't have to beat up the boys because they don't have a full uniform. However, some things have to happen to give them incentive to purchase uniform items. Things like; uniform inspections (teaches the boys whats expected), requiring uniforms at all BOR's (even if its borrowed), requiring all scouts to travel in uniform on all campouts, ect.

 

Set the standard high the youth will arise to the standard. Set the standard low and the youth will arise to the standard. Its all about setting the standard where it should be, not lowering the standard.

 

Now with that said there will be some families that just can't afford a $50 pair of pants any more than they can afford a $50 shirt. For those families there are many things that can be done by the unit. Namely start a uniform exchange by purchasing experienced uniform items and sell them or give them to the youth as needed. There are many places where you can purchase uniform for under $15 if you just look.

 

We just need to stop making excuses and set the standard where it should be.

 

 

[Hawkrod]

I had to think about this issue a bunch before I responded because I know that no matter which way you respond somebody will take issue with it and being in such a low income area I do know how tough it can be to be able to put a uniform on each boy. I have run a used uniform library in our area for almost 7 years and have put uniforms on hundreds of boys. I try and keep at least 150 shirts on hand but it can be financially draining and it is also a lot of work. Recently another person in our area decided to try and start a library and trust me, I am grateful as I will be able to reduce or possibly even quit what I am doing as it has been a burden when there is so much else to do. The bottom line is that they could have borrowed uniform parts before they went, they could acquire used components at thrift stores or on eBay or Craigslist. The BSA has an established and printed standard that MUST be met. It is not optional for the boys to decide to do it because "that is how their Troop does it". There are always ways to make it happen and it is disapointing that an adult or the OA members would think that a partial uniform would be acceptable, now that I think about it I think the SM was too lenient. They only think that a partial uniform is acceptable because adults have set the bar low as has already been noted. It does not matter where or how, what matters is that there are rules and too many people are far too happy to bend each one of the rules just a bit because it "doesn't matter". Pretty soon we have lowered the standards and diluted the value of the program. We are simply devalueing what we are doing just as so many people in our society have done as a whole. The simple erosion of standards is one of the biggest threats to any program or group effort. We have laws that have no repercussions and we even overturn laws because "they are not fair" and most recently the Justice department has determined that Dayton Ohio must make a failing grade acceptable to become a candidate for the police department because anything higher than failing is ethnically discriminatory. Do you want a cop who failed the basic test? We just talked about the value of being an Eagle Scout and the same issues apply there as well, we have to stop saying "just this time". I am sorry that some see a partial uniform as acceptable because that is not the rules we operate under and even the local troop should not consider it acceptable. A proper uniform is prescribed and that is what the boys should be wearing and when representing the OA it becomes even more critical. JMO your mileage may vary.

[frank10]

I would not mistreat the election team for the lack of uniforms.

I would however find it distasteful and disrespectful. They would not be invited back. And if I got the idea stuck in my head that this was the best the OA had to offer, I'd pass on sending them my best.

[Beavah]

Yah, hmmm...

 

For all those who feel the two SM's behavior was OK, I'm curious about your response to TwoCubDad's question, eh?

 

Would you embarrass a guest in your home by asking them to change pants before dinner?

 

For me, there is a profound difference between two sorts of people.

 

Those who apply ethics to themselves, first and foremost.

 

And those who apply ethics to others, first and foremost.

 

To my mind, da two scouters were the latter sort, eh? Rather than askin' themselves "How should I act in this situation where OA representatives show up in partial uniform?" they focus on how they feel the OA representatives should have acted differently.

 

Beavah

 

[shortridge]

Through my years as an election team member, I don't think I ever once wore the full uniform. I never had a problem or a complaint. The troops I visited were grateful to have an election, period.

 

I didn't even own one when I first ran for lodge office - delivered my campaign speech in a khaki shirt and pair of greenish slacks. (I remember one guy who gave his speech still wearing his filthy apron direct from the kitchen where he'd been slaving away all weekend. He won. Then he returned to the kitchen.)

 

With only slight exaggeration, I think the only people in the lodge who did wear the full uniform regularly were adult advisers and the secretary/treasurer types, who seemed to spend the weekend sitting at tables in the dining hall selling patches and printing out membership lists or something.

 

Once I started working on camp staff, that changed. It was required for the job, and I adjusted to the "new normal." I now wouldn't think of wearing the shirt without the pants or shorts.

 

But Scouting's not a job. A complete uniform costs upwards of $150. And especially in this economy, that's real money for something you're only going to wear once a week and one (maybe two) weekends a month.

 

Bottom line: How you exemplify the spirit of Scouting and the Order gets you much farther in my book than whether you're wearing a pair of overpriced pants.

[HICO_Eagle]

Honestly? It wouldn't even have occurred to me that an OA team would show up in less than complete uniform -- and our troop uses the "waist up" policy for most cases. We have a uniform bank and I have personally purchased two sets of pants for the bank when we needed FULL uniform for a very public flag ceremony. The lodge in question may have different standards and I'm certainly not going to argue if they have a cogent reasonable explanation of why they would send a team in less than complete uniform -- but they should have a cogent reasonable explanation.

 

I have some Scouts in my troop who have parents that have been out of work for 3 years; I get the cost issue. At the same time, the Scouts I've seen who talked the most about not being able to afford pants/shorts also went to concerts, bought CDs or DVDs, etc. fairly frequently.

 

I think the first SM handled it well, the former SM should have kept his yap shut and I appreciate the patience displayed by the acccompanying parent/adult. I find it hard to imagine how this situation would arise if I were Lodge Advisor but I'm not going to pass judgment because I don't think I have enough information to do so.

[artjrk]

Thank you all for letting me rant and for your helpful comments.

 

Here is my take away from this;

Yes the election team should have been in full uniform in the first place. When representing the OA in an official manner full uniform should be the norm. not what is norm for their own troop. I have talked to the boy who is Vice-Chief of elections and the Advisor for elections. (both are in my troop and at PLC last night) We decided it will be added to the instruction guidelines book for the election teams.

 

Also talked to the accompanying father last night, Decided how the first SM handled it was fine. He was discrete and did not try to embarrass the boys. It was more like a learning moment, that they should think about their appearance and how they represent the OA.

 

All still agree second (former) SM was over the line.

 

As far as our troop's uniform policy, Yes we only require from the waist up, but we encourage full uniform. I would estimate we have up to 50% participation in full. Two of the boys in question are twins both over 6' and it IS a burden to try and keep up with their out growing clothing each year. We do not have a formal uniform exchange closet. But uniforms have been passed on informally. We meet in the school and just do not have storage space for such. The shed we do have we share with the Pack.

 

Personally I wear the full uniform whenever possible or appropriate similar pants. But yes on occasion I wear jeans as well. I support following the Uniform method as much as I support the other 7 methods. Heck as far as Adult Interaction method I am out there playing along in the game activities. I let them choose and lead the activity but I am a very supportive participant.

[Hawkrod]

I see a lot of opinions but I also see a couple of unrelated points or bad analogies that have been use that to justify the answers given. For example (sorry Beavah, yours is easy) It was asked "Would you embarrass a guest in your home by asking them to change pants before dinner?" and there are points that need to be addressed to respond to that. First how is an OA team like a guest in my house? I would more likely look at them as employees. They asked to come and do a "job" that they committed to do for the OA. If I had a party at my house and I used a company that hired a waitstaff and they showed up in casual wear I would send them packing. Same thing at work. Even in a job interview situation. I used to work for a very large corporation and I automatically ignored any applications if I knew the applicant picked up or dropped off an application or showed up for an interview wearing jeans. That simple. We were a suit and tie operation and if you were not dressed appropriately for the job you were not fit to even apply. I know for a fact that some of the people had potential but we had minimum standards and expected our applicants to live up to them. As far as the actual question about guests in my house? If I was having a formal party and somebody showed up dressed innapropriately then it is very possible and maybe even probable that they would not be welcome. At that point it would be dictated by the circustances. Had they flown in and their baggage was lost? If so did we try and find them appropriate clothing just as the SM did? If so then we would be in the same situation and would probably have handled it the same as the SM did. BUT, if they lived around the corner and just decided that they wanted to come to my dinner but formal was not something they were going to do then they probably would not be welcome. Again, allowing people to ignore or violate the rules just lowers the expectations and the end result is failure even if you achieve your goal. The ends do not justify the means in circumstances dictated by rules and obligations. Not holding OA to the standard is just what our newest ex-member was whining about when he wrote that the ideals were really not of any use. Who got that boy to that point? We did. Each and every one of use that let things slip and allowed unnacceptable behavior go. Why do we wear a complete uniform? Because it is part of the program. It works because of what it does and what it represents. As jet526 also noted, "As for a the lack pants being "normal and acceptable" for any unit...I guess it isn't any worse than the other seven methods being optional.". So what some people here are saying is that the seven methods are not important and so just do what you feel is "okay" right? So why bother with Eagle projects? They are good boys and they did show up occassionally, it would not be fair to tell their mother that they didn't do that POR in the last 6 months before their 18 birthday (from another recent thread). Ignoring that method has no more weight than ignoring the uniform method does it? The 7 prescribed method of Scouting are what we have agreed to follow. These are what we do. Ignoring any aspect because it is inconvenient or rude to a guest (and I still don't accept the OA being there as "guests" in that context) is still failing and accepting failure is not something I am prepared to do. Letting this uniform thing go would have been a failure on the part of the SM and I applaud him for doing the right thing. Doing the right thing is not always the easy thing and is a testament to his character. Now, having said that, once the SM had addressed it the issue, I think it should not have been addressed at the meeting by anybody else and the SM or CC should have contacted the LA to make the leadership aware of the issue afterwards.

[SeattlePioneer]

Interesting discussion.

 

I'd be interested to know what the election team reported back to the OA chapter and what the OA chapter might have decided to do in the future.

 

The OA election team learned that there is a pretty wide range of Scouting out there, and that some may take their standards seriously. They should be able to learn from that and try to adapt to that fact.

 

Of course they could just be insulted and go home.

 

While it might have been the generous or patonizing thing to ignore the out of uniforming thing by the Scout Troop, I don't think they were behaving badly by trying to maintain their troop standards. They acted reasonably, in my opinion.

 

The interesting question for me is how the OA election team reported on this issue to the chapter and what chapter leaders might be doing about it.

[SR540Beaver]

SP,

 

Being on an election team is a real eye opener for the team and the adult along with them. You get a peek into the troops of your district and boy, are they all different. It is like walking into every house in your neighborhood. Some are clean, some are dirty, some have pets, some don't, etc. We've called on troops that had everyone in troop tshirts. We've called on troops where the boys have on neckers and wear their MB sashes. We've called on troops that have many active uniformed adults and we've called on troops that have an SM and maybe one or two adults in civvies. We've called on troops that have 50 scouts and troops that have 5 scouts. We've called on highly successful troops and troops struggling to survive. You kind of get an opportunity to see how everyone else lives.

 

I don't know what will be reported back to the chapter and how it will affect their election teams going forward. But as I said previously, our election teams know to show up in full uniform....regardless of how all the troops we visit dress. Part of out job as members of SCouting's honor society is to set the example.

[Twocubdad]

Blame it all on my roots, I showed up in boots, and ruined your black-tie affair....

 

Hawk, unless you're hosting a bridal shower for Andrew and Kate, I still can't imagine sending a guest away, or hauling them upstairs to look for something to change into. If some schlub shows up for a white-tie formal in ripped jeans and an AC/DC tee shirt, the poor reflection is on him, not the host. Asking him to leave would be a poorer reflection on the host than having him stay, in my opinion.

 

As to hired help, in the first place, I do not equate the e-team with hired staff for the very obvious reason that they aren't paid. But more to the point, if my paid caterer sends casually-dressed staff to my formal party, my beef is with the caterer, not his staff. Yes, I'm probably going to hit the ceiling and raise all sorts of cain with the caterer, but that goes back to the first point -- in this case I AM paying for formally-dressed servers and expect to get what I paid for.

 

Still, there is no need for me to take it out on a bunch of $6-per-hour servers. They, like the OA election team, were doing what they were instructed to do, or what they failed to be instructed to do, as the case may be.

 

Although I don't think it appropriate, if it's a deal-breaker for you, take the e-team outside and let them know that as a matter of principle you cannot let them represent the OA before your troop in less than full uniform. You can reschedule the election another time when they are in full uniform. Of course that other time may be a really, really cold day, but that's the cost of standing by your principle.

 

As far as the slow degradation of standards, I don't disagree with you. But I have to ask which standard is more important -- A Scout is Courteous or A Scout Wears Official Pants?

 

The key is in how you go about enforcing the standard. There is a process here. It would have been absolutely appropriate for the SM to rip the e-team on his evaluation or the call the lodge/chapter advisor and share his complaint there. And next year, when the troop schedules the election, the VC-Elections should be reminded the troop expects the team to be in full uniform. If not, meet them at the door and reschedule. And -- by the way -- the second time your schlub neighbor show up in the AC/DC tee, he's doing it on purpose and you're justified in giving him the boot.

 

I would also ask you to think about which standards