Once a uniform always a uniform????

[Hawkrod]

In the Jambo Patch thread, VigilEagle04 wrote "As for the uniform police, if it was once official, it is still official."

 

I have heard this many times and have seen people post it but I am curious if anybody can tell me where it is shown in BSA documents? The subject came up and it was pointed out by a BSA National employee that any uniform is okay but that insignia are a different issue and the same rules do not apply. Specifically the issue came up regarding red shoulder loops but the comment in the Jambo patch thread got me to thinking about it. Where is it written? I regularly wear a 1970's summer weight shirt that has a 1973 council R/W patch. Except for the R/W, the patches on the shirt are all current including flag location and World Crest and of course there are no epaulets. I love the shirt since it is so lightweight (we are in the Mojave desert) and so I tend to wear this one a lot (I have several shirts). I see others wearing current shirts but without the appropriate insignia (or worse, the right parts in the wrong places) and I know that the uniform inspection sheet and the IG cover most of this but I don't see anything about old stuff anywhere. TIA(This message has been edited by Hawkrod)

[Eagle92]

the reason why they say, "once official, always official,' is b/c it is copyrighted or tradedmarked, whichever is the correct term, to the BSA, and if the BSA was to make it unoffical, they would lose the copyright/trademark and anyone could wear it. BSA has gone after folks wearing the uniform, ie TLC when they wore components of BSA uniforms to an awards ceremony or concert.

 

One of the problems with older items is that the IG doesn't keepthe info in them. best Example I can give is the old Leadership Corps patches of the 1972-89, both trapezoid and round, were authorized to be worn on the red jacket's right pocket. Another is the BROWNSEA strip authorized for wear between the CSP and Unit numbers.

 

For stuff that is no longer used, you got to get literature form that time period and/or use pictures form that period. ROCKWELLs are a great source of info. Old BSHB are too.

 

As to the red epaulets, and numbers too for that matter, according to the PDF that national put out introducing the centennial uniforms, they did say items on the ODLs and CUs were interchangeable. The didn't specify exactly what items were interchangable, which has lead to some discussions on the topic. My thought is that since insignia are uniform items, and the official document, and only uniform regs from May 2008- April 2009 really, state that uniform items are interchangeable, you can wear red loops and numbers with your CUs if you are a boy scout leader. Just as Webelos and Cub leaders can wear the tan and green numbers if in the CUs since that is a 'vintage Aug 2008-April 2009" uniform

 

[Stosh]

My boys don't always wear the correct patches for their historic uniforms because of the cost. However they are encouraged to wear a full uniform, any uniform, or combination thereof. The inexpensive piped pocket uniforms are about half the troop and E-bay has a lot of them for sale. I even have one boy who wears the campaign hat with his historic uniform and another who always wears the garrison cap. We look a bit like a hodge-podge group, but always get complimented on being in full uniform.

 

When anyone drives by my boys working on an Eagle project on a hot summer day, they always know it's a Boy Scout project because all the scouts are in full uniform with neckers! TV showed up and recorded our last project and at the 6:00 pm and 10:00 pm news, there were scout uniforms all over the place and we got a ton of great press for it. No one ever commented on the uniforms being a mix and match affair. Historic or not, people know what a BSA uniform looks like regardless of it's age!

 

Your mileage may vary,

 

Stosh

[Hawkrod]

Thanks Eagle92, I appreciate the thought process, I just question the details. The red epaulets were the best example I could come up with because the National employee showed me a letter telling them that they were no longer to be used and that the new green was the only color that signified the Boy Scout program. The old red ones were to be destroyed and units should not be using them. The person went on to explain that insignia is not the same as uniform and so the once a uniform always a uniform did not apply to the epaulets and they were not to be used. Our unit gave up their beloved red ones and purchased the green ones. This was an issue for us as our units colors are black and red and we have flags, neckers and other items that prominently feature the black and red.

 

jblake47, I appreciate your comment about various components and we see it often. The only comment I would make is that the hat versions are not a specifically required uniform item and the local units choose which hats they wear. It does not matter if it was once a BSA hat if your unit does not approve of that particular hat. In our unit the boys chose berets for formal wear and stetson for camp/outdoors and those are the only approved uniform hats so that is what the boys MUST wear. From the uniform inspection sheet: "Headgear. All troop members must wear the headgear chosen by vote of the troop/team.". Because the troop has voted and choosen which hats are approved and when, no other hats are an option while in uniform. I realize this makes me sound like the uniform police but it is not my rule, it is the rule of the unit, choosen by the boys, and they all enforce it. Thanks

[Eagle92]

Hawk,

 

One question, who was the letter addressed to as I know of no letter from anyone from national to volunteers that stated the red loops were to be destroyed. Not doubting ya one bit b/c I bet they did show you a letter. BUT I bet it was addressed to national scout shop managers and employees tellig them to destroy their inventory.

 

 

I used to work in supply and know that sometimes, not often but sometimes, national tells shops to destroy merchandise for whatever reason. I remember working for supply and all Garfield merchandise had to be destroyed b/c the contract was about to expire. I wish I could have saved some of the stuff I had to throw in the dumpster as i am a collector and some of the stuff I couldn't afford, but thems the brakes.

 

EDITED:

 

While you are correct that a troop has to decide what hat to wear, a PLC can vote to allow any Scouting hat, evan a mixing of them, if they want. My troop growing up orignally had members in 2 types of hats: the ball caps, and for those who earned them via Brownsea 22 or WB the Campaign Covers. Then after having folks go to Philmont, Jambo, workign summer camp staff, etc the PLC decided to allow ANY scouting hat.

 

So that varies form unit to unit.(This message has been edited by Eagle92)

 

EDIT 2: You can't be a member of the Uniform Police unless the thread at MYSCOUTING.ORG, entitled "...You Might be an Uniform Policeman" applies to ya and Welcome to the boards!(This message has been edited by Eagle92)

[Hawkrod]

You are correct, it was a letter to the employees that I was shown not to Scouters (sorry, I did not mean to imply that it was for all eyes). As far as the hats go, isn't that what I wrote? LOL Thanks(This message has been edited by Hawkrod)

[Eagle92]

Hawk,

 

No prob. I read into it that everyone inthe troop must have the exact same hat. In my neckof the woods, uniform inspections are part of camporee's interpatrol competitions, and it can be interesting.

 

In ref to the loops, sorry your troop felt compelled to do away with the red loops. I know of one unit that is making "reproduction red loops" b/c they also use red neckers.

[clemlaw]

>>>>isn't that what I wrote? LOL

[pchadbo]

>> I could take some purple spandex shirts with black fringes and tassels (think cowboy shirts here)and stencil Boy Scouts of America on them in neon green and still fall under trademark infringement even though said shirt wasn't, will never be or never was an official uniform of the BSA.

 

[Eagle92]

Just repeating what I was told and heard form others.

[Scoutfish]

Eagle.

 

Oh,I understand that completely. Like I said, I have no reason to believe you are misleading anybody or trying to push a non-truth.

 

It's just that - it doesn't make sense...kinda like alot of the stuff we hear from others.

[Rockford8070]

Could it be as simple as national has never come out and said certain items are no longer official uniform?