New BSA knot

[BDPT00]

drmbear and ScoutBox,

If you don't know what the bull is for, there are plenty of people who can tell you. Don't guess.

You'll get a few differing answers, so you should even be cautious about that ... but don't guess.

BDPT00

[HawkUH60]

What does current BSA policy or the insignia state about

Wearing the bull always start with looking in a book or reference.

Just my 2 cents

[ScoutBox]

OK, If I can't trust what anyone is saying about it, then why do we have this forum? I know where it goes, was just wondering the rules for wearing it. I read that it was issued with the original Jac Shirts that originated at Philmont. Made me want to ask was this due to it being a Philmont only patch or was it a BSA patch worn with the Jac Shirt.

 

 

[drmbear]

The Philmont Black Felt Bull originated in 1944 by Dr. E. K. Fretwell, who was then Chief Scout Executive. It was patterned after the bull found in the tile mosaic located at the downstairs entrance to the Villa Philmonte. In the beginning a first year camper or leader received only the head of the bull to sew over the left pock of the shirt. After another year's participation, one qualified for the body portion and the bull, and with three years, the tail. Eventually the bull was made in one piece, black for men and white for women, and the shirt was changed to a red wool jacket. The white bull was discontinued in the late 1980's.

 

See 2008 threads:

 

http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=187798

http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=40484

 

----------------------

 

I really don't need the smart comments - I was trying to be helpful. I don't believe there are any specific rules, but there are certainly long-running traditions. I went to Philmont. I climbed Baldy and the Tooth of Time. I wear the bull patch and have people assume I did and ask me about it when I wear my jacket. I think it is deceptive and dishonest to wear the patch if you didn't go. It would be like someone wearing an OA Flap they acquired and put on their uniform because it looked cool. Not very Scout-like, in my opinion.

[ScoutBox]

Thanks for the information drmbear. This is what I was looking for. I myself would never wear the patch or any thing else I didn't earn, and hate to see anyone else do the same. Probably something I picked up during my youth, anyway, the story you tell above is the second story I've heard, and different from the first. Like I said, what I stated was what I had found from a book I have "Philmont Insignia", by John Conley Williams, and Robert Rogers. It's a Collector's Guide to Philmont Patches etc.. There are so many ways the BSA does things, and not all fall under the standard with many people. Hard to find the correct information sometimes. Anyway, thanks for clearing that up..

 

And agree on some of the remarks on here, makes me think not only of another forum I'm a member of, but rarely visit, that there are some 13 year olds on here from time to time, and they aren't scouts..

[desertrat77]

Drmbear and Scoutbox,

 

As observed, there are a few forum members who believe the BSA Uniform Guide is Holy writ, carved in stone, and should never be changed or challenged.

 

I am not one of them.

 

In their zeal to protect the sacredness of the Uniform Guide, and the Perfection with which It was written, they often stifle discussions. It can be a bit tedious at times.

 

I was enjoying the discussion before the yellow caution flag was flown--I too have the old Philmont bull, '77. Lore at the time (sorry Uniform Guide Gurus, I don't have a notarized copy of the ranger's comments for your perusal) was if you go to Philmont in some capacity, wear the bull on the left shoulder of the red jacket. Hike over the tooth of time, sew the tail above the shoulder.

 

Desertrat77

(This message has been edited by desertrat77)

[HawkUH60]

I was at my scout shop today and was a little surprised to see the new knot. It was not for sale just yet but it was an interesting topic. Other then this new style of knot (different embordery company) the colors looked ok.

[Eagle92]

'Rat, Drmbear and Scoutbox,

 

Its kinda understood you don't wear something you haven't earned. So if you haven't been to Philmont, you don't wear the bull. the IG states the following

 

http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/Media/InsigniaGuide/03.aspx

 

Jackets and Their Insignia

 

The Philmont bull emblem is especially designed for the red wool jac-shirt to be sewn on the left side above the pocket. On all jackets the Philmont Scout Ranch, Philmont Training Center, or high-adventure base emblems may be worn centered on the right pocket or in the same relative position if there is no pocket.

 

Also here: http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/Media/InsigniaGuide/08e.aspx

 

Canoe base loon, worn on left side of jacket or jac-shirt above pocket.

Philmont bull, worn on left side of jacket or jac-shirt above pocket.

 

One of the problems with the IG is that is that when items are discontinued, they are no longer included in the IG. Great example is the Leadership Corps patches of the 1970s-80 were authorized to be worn on the right pocket of the jacshirt. But that is not included in the current IG. Ditto the wearing of the "Varsity-Venture Letter," which venture crews, now called venture patrols could earn.

 

Or new stuff comes out after the IG is published. FL Sea Base has a Shark that goes over the left pocket.

 

I'm now curios what Bechtel is going to have.

 

 

 

[desertrat77]

Eagle92, I'm completely on board with you. 100 percent.

 

Not only in this thread, but other uniform threads as well, a member will ask a legit question, some discussion will ensue, or perhaps a declaration will be made that runs contrary to current policy, and you can count on a few Uniform Guide Gurus to pounce on the matter.

 

It's the tone, and the upshot any dissent makes one A Bad Scouter, that's what I'm addressing.(This message has been edited by desertrat77)

[HawkUH60]

I was at my scout shop today and was a little surprised to see the new knot. It was not for sale just yet but it was an interesting topic. Other then this new style of knot (different embordery company) the colors looked ok.

[HawkUH60]

What wrong with refering to printed materials when one has a question? Granted the insignia guide may not be the best reference but its a start.

 

As a commissioner I work withunits / leaders who don't even have or know about things like a SM handbook.

 

I don't understand why people in groups like this are quick to condemn somones opinion.

 

 

[Eagle92]

Desert,

 

OK. Hopefully my tone is not one of those unscoutlike ones as that is not my intent. I'm a librarian by profession, and my job is to get the correct info needed to folks. I try to go to the authoritative sources (at work it might be a medical society's guidelines, but for scouting sources like the IG et al) and present the info. Heck sometimes I comment that I might not agree with the policy, i.e. suits at EBORs ( I am a pro uniform, whether the offical national uniform or tie dye t-shirt and jeans I've seen one crew select), but I do cite policy and try to be helpful.

 

 

On a different note, as this thread has gotten off track a bit, what I do not want is someone not be able to participate at all b/c they do not have a uniform. But that's what a new thread is all about.

[desertrat77]

Eagle92, you have always been scoutlike in every post, and I read your comments with interest whatever the topic might be.

 

HawkUH60: Nothing wrong with the guide, or pointing to it. To clarify, I was addressing tone and the effect it has on conversation. It was starting to go that way in this thread, and has been pretty bad in others from the past.

 

We all want to comply and be good scouts. But, speaking in general, there is a tendency on the forums for some uniform police to get condescending to anyone who a) doesn't know the IG and b) dares to disagree with the IG, and c) dares to disagree with a uniform police opinion on something that isn't clear in the IG.

 

Merry Christmas all! (And Hawk, I salute you up there at Ft Drum--I was there for an exercise two years ago, and that was the coldest September wx I'd ever experienced in the field!)(This message has been edited by desertrat77)

[HawkUH60]

So hay how about that new knot! (Lol)

 

[desertrat77]

Hawk, good point--seems I've hijacked the thread a bit.

 

My screed is over, thanks for your indulgence.

 

Re the knot: seems like a worthy effort--getting some old timers back, be they former scouts or scouters, would inject some new lifeblood into the movement.