Tradition and Uniforms

[Beavah]

Yah, OGE's post that spun this thread got me thinkin'. And we haven't had a good, long, uniform thread in a while

 

Seems to me that da folks for whom uniforming is a big deal are old fellows like me, who hale from a bygone era where dress and other social interactions were just a lot more formal than they are now, eh? Yeh "knew where yeh stood," and clothing was one aspect of how you distinguished yourself from others. In some ways, that was da very purpose of clothing, to emphasize distinctions.

 

I wear professional attire to distinguish myself from non-professional folks. Some of my fellows wear very expensive, designer professional attire to distinguish themselves from others who are less monetarily successful. Hey, if they look successful, it helps justify their fees. Da princes of the state and of the church wore even more elaborate uniforms (some still do), to distinguish themselves from the commoner. In fact, yeh were expected to dress up in your best finery even to approach such "nobility" in court or sacristy. Hence the notion of "courtliness" or "court-esy". Dressing like nobility shows respect at court, eh? Because da nobles cannot be expected to treat with a simple commoner.

 

Despite our protestations to the contrary, that's still da purpose of uniforming, eh? To distinguish between people. To identify the police officer from the citizen. To tell the physician from the candy-striper. To distinguish the general from the lieutenant. To tell those who belong from those who don't, and those who are important from those who aren't. It's a deep cultural thing, eh? People should know who their "betters" are.

 

That's why yeh see 3rd world leaders in all their regalia, eh? They mean to distinguish themselves from their fellows and especially from their citizens.

 

It's only been in da democratic west startin' with America where yeh see those distinctions breaking down. Our Commander in Chief follows Washington's example and just wears a business suit like any ordinary professional. Even when he meets with royalty, he shows up in da dress of a commoner. In fact, even if he was once General of the Army he leaves that uniform behind when his status changes.

 

All so very nouveax and dis-court-eous. Clothing should distinguish a person, eh?

 

Personally, I find myself slippin' into that old mode of thinkin' all the time. I like to see scouts in neat uniform. Hate the blue jeans thing, in fact. Blue jeans when I was growin' up were the work clothes of the commoner, eh? Wearin' 'em in the presence of your betters was dis-court-eous.

 

I wonder if I'm just an old fuddy-duddy. In fact, I don't wonder anymore, I'm pretty sure I am . And I wonder if the lads don't have the better notion than fuddy-duddys like me. Even those who wear jeans with their scout shirts like a common working man.

 

Just a random thought on a Friday, as I go off to spend some time with some great lads saluting some great veterans, who served with distinction, then surrendered their distinctions to return to the uniform of a common citizen. That's not somethin' that used to happen in the days of court-esy. And those old veterans are all the more special because of it.

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[allenj]

As another "Old Fart" I can easily relate to the previous post. In Detroit in the 50s we were used to layoffs and strikes in the auto industry. Most of our dads were car workers and sometimes money was tight.

 

I went to a Catholic school and we had to wear dress shirt, dress pants and a tie every day. As soon as we got home from school we had to change clothes.

 

Our troop was fully uniformed; Shirt, pants, square neckercheif, garrison hat and SPATS. All of our leaders were WWII vets so uniforming was important to them. Uniforms didn't cost an arm and a leg back then but many times the troop found ways to help families that were hurting. Uniforms were also passed around. I got mine from my cousin and who knows how many boys had it before him.

 

We never took our uniforms on campouts or outings. They were much to

important.

 

I know things have changed since then but darn we looked sharp. Now with price of our "Imported" finery I can sympathise with young families trying to make it. I'm definitly not fond of jeans and uniform shirts but I'm not paying the bills. Too bad no one makes

olive colored jeans.

 

Old Fart out.

[CalicoPenn]

Betters? Betters???!!!

 

Not sure if that's really where you meant to go with that.

 

Maybe that was the case in courts of nobility. Maybe that was the case in the old Eurasian societies. Maybe that's still the case in some societies.

 

But I just don't see that being the case here - or at least, it shouldn't be the case here.

 

I seem to recall one of the Founding Fathers writing some rather famous words: "We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal"

 

It's a difficult path, and at times it's not been high on our priorities - but the US is an ongoing experiment in being the greatest egalitarian society in the history of the world. Now maybe some will believe that to be a myth, and we can all point to times and places when that just hasn't been true - but for me at least, I believe our strength truly lies in the notion that all people (updated for the 21st century) are equal.

 

I look at someone in a $2,000 suit and the first thing that comes to my mind isn't "that person is better than me". No - the first thing that comes to my mind is "what kind of idiot spends 2 grand on a suit - it's just clothes". But maybe that's because I don't value money and power the way others do. Hey - I don't begrudge the person his $2K suit - just don't think for a minute that I'm going to bow and scrape in front of you because you're wearing an expensive suit.

 

When I see the President appearing in a business suit with some other head of state wearing some kind of military regalia, I wonder who the clown is that's standing next to the President. In the more settled countries with royalty, the nobles don't tend to wear fancy regalia except for certain formal ceremonies. When the Obama's met Queen Elizabeth and Prince Phillip in Buckingham Palace, the Queen was dressed as one would expect a woman of that age to dress, and the Prince was wearing a simple business suit.

 

The point that folks wear uniforms to identify themselves is well taken - but police officers wear uniforms not to show that they are better than others, but so that we can identify them as someone to get help from.

 

As for military uniforms - in many cases, the only difference in the uniforms is the number of stripes, or the presence of metal.

 

And to beat the whole idea of dressing to show one is better to a further pulp - I witnessed an interesting interaction in a bank on the coast of Maine once. A farmer came in dressed in grimy overalls and stinking like a working dairy farmer would after working with his animals. That offended some Executive Vice President of a major credit card bank that had recently moved in the area and this executive demanded that the bank manager do something about it. The bank manager did - he promptly closed the executive's account, gave him a bank check for his deposits, and pointed out that his $2 million dollars wasn't anywhere near enough to cause him to lose a customer (the farmer) worth $25 million.

 

Ask yourself this - is the CEO of a $350 million dollar firm really someone's better because he wears a nice suit, and the other person wears slacks or jeans and a button down shirt? If you answered yes, would that answer change if that other person, the one wearing the slacks or jeans and button down shirt was Bill Gates?

 

[Scoutfish]

It's a two way idea for sure.

 

I completely agree with everything that Calico just said: Most of those dictators pile up useless and and unearned medals on their military uniforms in order to show they have more power. Really? Does having 6 stripes on your sleeve - as a 60 year old guy who doesn't even blow his own nose - mean you are more powerfull, stronger,or even wise than the 25 year old special forces guy you command?

 

Now as far as the president wearing a military uniform..that would be proper only during times he acts as commander in chief WHILE directing war movements or such. At other times, he would wear clothing that represents his civilian elected position. But suppose you had Obama show up in military uniform. How many veterans and active militry would be offended by that?

 

Matter of fact, in general society ( or at least in American society) maybe half of the people who drive status cars and wear "better" clothes - got that money and clothes by less that honest means. Banks, Morgage co, Ponzi schemes, congressmen , politics in general.

 

Are they better than me? WEll, only if being dishonest without a care is better.

 

Now, I also see your point too, Beavah:

 

Tradition isn't just simply wearing the uniform itself, but also the pride behind wearing it for what it is supposed to mean. It means that I am proud to be a scouter, and I am proud to show you, the next guy , and everybody else that this uniform shows what I do, what I stand for ( upholding, teaching, and representing the scout morals) and that I work with todays youth who are going to be our future leaders. Yeah, I am proud to wear my scout uniform with my latest temp training patch, my "TRAINED" patch and that CubMaster patch on my left sleeve.

 

But only because of WHAT I DO when I am wearing that uniform.

 

Better? Depends. I do not think of my self as being better than anybody else because of where I live, where I was born, what my last name is, my race, my religion, or what my financial status is. That is just arrogance.

 

I do not think of myself as being better because I am in scouting.

 

But when compared to those who openly and willfully make a conscious decision to steal, kill,committ murder, cheat on spouses, willfully and intentionally commit spousal abuse, child abuse..decide to torture based on race, religion,or even societial differences..or simply are bigoted against other just because trhey are different from me.......well, YES!

 

I am better than that!

 

 

But I do not think the uniform makes me better. My decision to be a part of a youth oriented group that just happens to wear that uniform ..does make me better than a parent who really just doesn't care about his kids.

 

But I would be that same person regardles of the uniform or not.

 

The uniform is just a statement of what I do and what I belive in.

 

 

So, I do want to point out something though: Remember all the wigs the "betters" wore during colonial times? Funny that people thought that taking an odd colored, artificial, non-body object and putting it on your head made you better!

 

I almost think it was just a matter of random luck that they didn't decide to bolt planks of wood to their hreads in order to do the same thing!

 

But also look at the Chinese years ago: lead face paint meant you were higher staus..right down to all it's glorious deadlyness. And tiny feet were a sure sign of being "better" never mind the pain,m agony and the fact that the "better" people were deforming, and crippling themselves in the name of being "better".

 

So, the way I see it, some people are definantly better than others, but only by their concious decisions they make, the choices they follow, and the way they live their lives.

[83Eagle]

Yeh "knew where yeh stood," and clothing was one aspect of how you distinguished yourself from others.

 

The uniform is distinquishing and, at a fundamental level, it's identifying. This is a strength of the BSA program.

 

My wife has been a Girl Scout leader for many years. The Girl Scouts do not have a "uniform" to speak of for leaders. They have a dress code--tan pants, white shirt--and a few "official" pieces of clothing you can buy (like a blue cardigan).

 

But when I walk into a Girl Scout meeting, I have no idea who the leaders are. Their clothing does not match the girls' uniforms and they don't wear a patch to speak of. When you come to a Den, Pack, or Troop meeting, you can (or should be able to) identify who the leaders are. It lends a sense of dignity and importance. That's NOT to say that the Girl Scouts are not dignified or important, just that the Boy Scout leader uniform enhances that.

 

The only drawback to the uniform that I see is that by clearly identifying the people "in charge," it can be more difficult to get a parent to step up to help with something. I think they can feel a little intimidated, like they're not supposed to be in the front of the room with all these decked-out adults and boys.

 

But, that's a surmountable issue with a little practice...and it also means you can use the uniform as an incentive for volunteers. "Would you like to be an ACM? You get to wear the uniform..." :-)(This message has been edited by 83eagle)

[SSScout]

Just recveived latest BSA Scoutstuff catalog.

Page 20, "BluBSA Denim Jeans... with BSA logos and all...

[Stosh]

I kinda go a tad bit with Calico says, but not entirely.

 

I fall into 83Eagle's camp. The uniform of anyone identifies their role or function. If I needed assistance in a traffic accident, police, firefighters and EMT's all over in uniform, I'm going to be able to know who it is I'm to seek out for my specific problem. If the car's on fire, I'm not going to seek out an EMT! If the other guy won't give me his insurance information, I'm not going to seek out a firefighter. LOL, I'm surely not going to discuss my ED problem with a 14 year-old candy striper either!

 

It's not an issue of who's better than whom, but an issue of where do I direct my attention. The uniform tells the world what they can expect from the person wearing it. Protection -- police and military, rescue -- firemen and EMT's, etc.

 

However, I'm from the old fart generation where HOW the uniform would tell the world what they could expect as well. If I'm spit and polish, I tell the world something far different than if I'm only wearing say, maybe, half the uniform. It's an attitude/pride kind of thingy that I wish to convey.

 

Now some 3rd World dictator may take this to the extreme and give the impression of arrogance/haughty, but they aren't fooling anyone.

 

However, this attitude and pride is reflect in how they wear the chosen uniform. If the uniform is complete, clean and looks like they have put some time and effort into it, it speaks differently than those that just get by with half a uniform whether it be clean and pressed or wrinkled and dirty. It still doesn't measure up to the level of pride the uniform deserves. I see a lot of veterans wearing their old uniforms and it doesn't make one iota bit of difference how many stripes or amount of brass that is on it. If it has been maintained, cared for, and put on with pride, I react emotionally and profoundly thankful. If he's dragged it out of a box, put it on wrinkled and goes out in public, I am still thankful, but it just doesn't speak to me in the same way.

 

I was once visiting in Calgary CA and was in a gift shop when I noticed a large number of youth there. They were all in various civilian dress. However, they all wore bright yellow neckers. I knew they were Canadian Scouts immediately and struck up a conversation with some of them. However, I'm thinking I would have been totally blown away if I saw them all in full uniform. That would have been impressive! But then again, I'm an old fart.

 

Stosh

[Eagle92]

86Eagle,

 

the biggest complaint about GS that I have heard is that you do not see them at all except when they are selling cookies, and only b/c of the cookies. the lack of uniform makes them invisible to the public in my neck of the wood. Ditto our onetime sister organization,Campfire USA, and other youth groups

[83Eagle]

The "problem" with the GS youth uniform is that it is not standard. You can wear a sash or a vest, for your badges. Each troop decides, and a lot of time they don't wear them. What goes underneath the sash or vest is up to the girl. It's supposed to be white shirt, tan pants like the leaders but...

 

I don't understand why the GS haven't standardized on a uniform not just for identification, but for $. I'm guessing the BSA has gotta make something on the shirts, pants, socks, hats, neckers, and bevy of patches that go on youth and adult uniforms. Maybe I'm wrong...

 

It's a shame because in our community the Girl Scouts are very active in community service--much more than the Boy Scouts--but you wouldn't know it because they just look like a group of girls when they're out working.

[GernBlansten]

Why is that a shame? The girls are out doing their service. That's the goal isn't it? Is it a shame because that service isn't being marketed as a GSA activity?

[83Eagle]

It's a shame that some people lurk to find fault with every post and live to start arguments. I won't be sucked in.

 

It's my opinion, you're welcome to yours.

[GernBlansten]

Interesting. Welcome aboard. However, you should know I'm not a lurker. I'm an active BSA volunteer and have been for many years.

 

Why is it a shame when the youth we lead actually follow through with public service? I just don't understand that? I'm not shamed by it. I'm proud of it.

[83Eagle]

Look at the tone of your post GlenBastern. Just more of the same confrontational and condescending online crap you see in so many forums where people get to hide behind anonymity. If you're not an online bully you do a good imitation of one.

 

Well, I wasn't going to argue this, but the point of my post was that the uniform is a point of identity to both the GS group itself, and to the group within the community. And when the group is seen by the community as doing something good, that's a positive for the group. Yes, the girls should--and do--want to do service for its own reward. But it is also good to get the group some PR in the community and even drive membership as a result. Perhaps what you cynically call being "marketed?"

 

You know, I really was hoping to find something different in this forum considering that it is a Scouting forum.

 

That is, the whole "A scout is...friendly, courteous, kind...." thing?

 

Instead, my early indication is that this is just more of the "old guard" garbage where the people who've been around for years and know all the inside baseball just wait at their keyboard to pounce on newbies with snide comments, criticisms, and plenty of ALL CAPS comments just so we pay attention.

 

You all might just wanna think about how your comments come across to those who haven't managed to average several posts here a day over the past 5 or 10 years.

[John-in-KC]

A Scout is Courteous. That's all I will say on that.

 

As to uniform: I'm starting to believe how many adults want to be Mexican Generals. I have seen some uniforms so bloody cluttered it is not funny.

 

I'm almost ready, for adults, to dump everything off the shirt, period. One hang tag ... Name, position & unit, council. That's it. No OA, no Jambo, no Silver Beavers as though they were the Congressional Medal of Honor, no WB beads and necker...

 

It's about serving the youth. If your smile and your handshake are not sufficient to tell others about the man or woman you are, then something isn't right.

 

The cynic in me says this will never fly; Supply Corporation needs the bucks.

[Nike]

Why don't GS wear uniforms? Because GSUSA is constantly chasing trends, desperate to find the lowest common acceptable denominator. We're down to pins. It's all about leveling the hierarchy and trying to appeal to the fickleness of fashion.

 

A vest/sash/tunic is not required. Girls only have to wear one with the white shirt/tan bottoms when representing GSUSA or for official ceremonies.

 

PS: If you're looking for the GS leader, she's probably the one with six eyes and eight hands and a 270 degree swivel neck.