Knots, to wear or not to wear?

[Eagle007]

Amen Brother Beavah. That sums it up in a nutshell.

[SeattlePioneer]

I appreciate Beavah's comments. They help keep a sense of proportion abhout knots.

 

Knots are the adult Scouter's advancement program. I'll admit to participating in that program.

 

I began my Scouter service thirty years ago, although I just became knot conscious when I got back into Scouting in 2004. I've accumulated three knots at this point, which I wear with a degree of pride ---- the Scouter Key knot, District Award of Merit and Tiger Cub knot.

 

I'll be eligible for the Cubmaster knot at the end of the year.

 

I've decided that it's nice to be recognized. The knots aid in motivating me in a small way, and I encourage other Scouters to go for the knots in hopes that they will have fun doing it and that it will shape their service and encourage them to serve.

 

I tease the big accumulators of knots a little bit by introducing them as someone who "has more knots that Patton had medals!" All in good fun, of course, and often by way of explaining the knot program.

 

I was pleased to hand out knots to my Tiger Cub Den leader recognizing his Eagle Scout and Arrow of Light awards as a youth. He took the Tiger Cub Den Leader training I offered last June, and I look forward to seeing him awarded the Tiger Cub Den Leader knot.

 

I carry the knot record/applications for many common knots with me when I attend Scout activities, and I'm always on the lookout for Scouters I can give the application, hoping it might encourage them to get trained or otherwise complete requirements.

 

Our district training committee chair makes a point of promoting knot awards.

 

I was at a troops "Haunted Hike" Halloween event a couple of months ago. I encountered a Tiger Cub Den Leader I hadn't met before, wearing a full uniform and with two knots indicating he's completed Eagle and Arrow of Light. That gave me some things to chat about, and I discovered that the parents of four other Tiger Cubs in his den were Eagle Scouts too!

 

 

I know I'm being considered for the Council Silver Beaver award this year. I will take a degree of pride if I win that award and would wear the knot with pride.

 

In short, some may value the knot program, and others may not. I think it can serve a useful purpose in encouraging adults to serve the Scouting program, to recognize and thank Scouters for their service, to get trained and to set high standards in the service we perform.

 

That's my experience, anyway. I've never seen knot heavy Scouters using them to beat up on other people.

 

 

 

 

[Scoutfish]

"Kids deeply value lots of things without wearin' 'em on their chest - everything from da high score in a video game to the state championship to being first chair in da orchestra to their high school diploma with honors. Because we don't wear clothing to reflect any of those things, are we really undervaluing achievement?"

 

No, but they do have the trophies on the shelves, in the front foyers and offices of schools, on signs out fron permanantly displaying such info.

 

They brag and use them as social status too.

 

But at the same time, those same kids will grow their hair long and wear it in an outrageuous style to irk their parents and as soon as the parents even act like they like the style, the kids change it. THose same kids will wear their pants half way down their legs and their hats sideways ...because it'scool" and because they want to show their individuality ( like everybody else!).

 

Like others though..my personal experience with those who wear knots is that the ones who wear them are the ones who are the most active and supportive of the kids. They are the ones who are working out front, out back, behind the scenes and in the middle of the night.

 

At RT, these guys are trhe ones who are working this wekenf and next weekend at the camp esetting up this activity and the next for the kids.

 

The ones who are the acting "too good for you" social elite of scouting usually look down their noses at the Knots or even uniforms in general. They are too busy brushing that imaginary lint off their $200.00 slacks and gold watches.

 

But I suppose that changes from council to council and varies depending on you location in the country.

[pohsuwed]

Great comments, especially the final comment by SeattlePioneer. I also have never seen any mud flung by a "have knot" at a "have not knot", but I have seen it the other way around plenty. (Pun intended, yet absolutely serious.)

 

And the rest of my experience is similar to ScoutFish. It is the often the egos who first target those with knots as those who surely must have the ego when all they are doing is getting on with the program and doing their best. After all, isn't part of our creed to do our best?(This message has been edited by pohsuwed)

[Hawkrod]

pohsuwed, I think you hit a nail on the head. I have not been a Scouter all that long but have been part of a couple of EXTREMELY active units that required all adults to get off of their tails and run. I have earned a lot of knots in short order as our CC's have been very proactive in documenting and submitting the forms (I actually did not know that the individual was supposed to be responsible because the CC always made sure it was taken care of!). I actually have a youth program related knot for every year or two that I have been in Scouting along with a District award or Merit, William D. Boyce New Unit Organizer and a Silver Beaver so I had a lot of knots. A local individual talked a lot about wearing knots and how it was important to the boys as it showed that we were working torwards things just as they were and it was motivational along with the other adults will respect your experience etc... so I had three knots on my shirt as a "sign". When I got the opportunity to go to Jambo, I decided to have all my pathces proper and so all the knots went on and this same person started making snide comments. They actually told me that I did not deserve the Silver Beaver (same person was denied the award) etc... so there are reasons to go either way. The knots do show you have been there doing a good job but the ego's of some people will make you want to take the knots off just to avoid the confrontation.

[Scoutfish]

Pohsuwed, got yourself an original tongue twister there. Say it fast 3 times!

 

Anyways, I am not saying that Beavah is totally or completely wrong. It goes both ways.

 

Just like Doctors: Some people become doctors because they are kind sould who genuinely want to do what they can to help people. They are nice, caring folks with great bedside manners.

 

But you also have the people who want to just be rich and see the money that some doctors make when the go into private practice. They are arrogant, rude, self serving abs usually only do what specifically benefits themselves and their career.

 

Two different sides of the same coin.

 

So , the way I see it, it's not about the knots, but the reason the person got them:

 

Did he just happen earn him along his journey as a scouter, or

was the purpose of the journey to just earn the knots?

 

And that is the difference!

 

 

 

[Eagle707]

This thread has gone on for nine pages so far and, yet, this "Ask Andy" column sums up the debate rather nicely in a much smaller space. Has anyone read this, per chance?

 

http://netcommish.com/AskAndy67.asp

 

Personally, I have three knots and wear all three knots: Eagle, Arrow of Light, and the Youth Religious award. I'll probably add more later but I'm comfortable with just having three. I've never seen knots used for intimidation either... and I've been in Scouting in two countries!

Knots are a timesaver too: Seeing what knots Scouters have earned summarizes their Scouting careers much faster than they can.

[SeattlePioneer]

My Scouter experience began in 1981 when I was recruited to be an Assistant Scoutmaster and became Scoutmaster a year later.

 

I don't have children, so my Scouting service has been to help others and to serve my own interests ---- Scouting provides me with congenial friends and acquiantances and low cost recreation.

 

When I'm looking around for things to do, the opportunity to earn knots can influence me in a small way. In my view, that's one of their purposes.

 

Last night I discussed with my District Executive making an effort to start a Cub Scout Pack using a labor union as the Chartered Organization. My research suggests that unions can make supportive Chartered Organizations, and my hope is the union might contribute families motivated to create an excellent program and reach out into the low income community that surrounds the union headquarters to encourage additional families to join Cub Scouts in an area not served by Scouting now.

 

*** AND *** I would be eligible for a knot for organizing a new unit! Besides, I'd like to say I organized at least one new Scout unit in my life!

 

 

I know I was being considered for the Silver Beaver award by my council this year, but I discovered last night I was not selected for that recognition. So no knot for that, not this year anyway!

 

As I noted in an earlier post, I have and wear three knots for the Scouter's Key, District Award of Merit and Tiger Cub Den Leader.

 

If knots shape a Scouter's behavior to achieve them by completing the requirements honestly, they are a VERY cheap way to motivate Scouters to do useful things for the program.

[Hawkrod]

SeattlePioneer wrote "If knots shape a Scouter's behavior to achieve them by completing the requirements honestly, they are a VERY cheap way to motivate Scouters to do useful things for the program. " and I like the way it sounds. If it works as you have written then yes, it is an excellent and inexpensive tool. Obviously if the knots are achieved any other way then the point it lost.

[mc99218]

The act is it's own reward....or words to that affect.

 

The sooner adults are removed from the uniform including the professional staff but excluding the scoutmasters and commissioners the sooner scouting will retake its place as the premier boy character developing meme and old problems can be seen by new eyes of the future citizens of the nations.

 

In the mean time it languishes in mediocrity and social quandry....

 

all scouting is local

 

all else is vanity

 

MCCET

PMTNPO

OWL

 

 

[desertrat77]

MC, I've got to mull over your adult uniform suggestion, gotta admit it's intriguing.

 

You are spot on about the mediocrity in the BSA. Lots of meetings, lots of homework, lots of rules. All very safe and very boring.

 

 

[SeattlePioneer]

Sorry MC and Desert Rat,

 

 

I encourage adults to be in uniform. It makes adults more a part of the program and it's a gift to Scouts to see adults participating.

 

When adults take Committee or leadership positions, they are recognized at the next pack meeting and given a neckerchief and slide by their Scout and the badge of their office.

 

They are also sworn into their office, promising to do their best and to obey the law of the pack.

[pohsuwed]

MC - Once again, completely ill-conceived correlations created between factors that are not close to having any direct correlation. Unless I am mistaken, it appears as though if /some/ adults give up their uniforms the program will come out of mediocrity?

 

In my opinion, the rubber meets the road at the troop level. If the program is not well presented and managed by the troop committee and the scoutmaster the troop will be mediocre. (Please nobody jump in and say that it must be boy-led for sake of this discussion.) If MC's correlation were true, then what he is saying is that this group of individuals would begin to act differently because the committee wouldn't be able to wear uniforms, nor would most of the council staff. How would this have any impact on their efforts? I would say that the uniform is one additional thing that would tie them all together in a common cause in unity that they could receive visual feedback of this common cause every time they met together. If anything, stripping them of uniform wear would cause a detraction in their purpose.

 

I don't recall ever seeing a photo of Baden Powell in anything but his uniform. Sure, some may say that he was a "scoutmaster", therefore he fit into MC's concept. Most would say because he represents everything about boy scouts.

 

I feel that if everyone wore their uniforms with pride setting the example for the boys and did their best to do a better job in providing the program to the boys without exerting their energy into jealous attachs about how other scouters have more knots than them we stand a better chance of pulling this program out of mediocrity.

[desertrat77]

Seattle, I think MC's idea, while revolutionary, has merit.

 

As a scout in the '70s, the adult scouters I knew, including the ones at council, wore some very spartan uniforms. The only adults that wore uniforms regularly were SM, CM, DL. And I was in three different councils coming up.

 

When I signed up as an adult in the mid '80s, having been away from BSA for about five years, I was shocked at the amount of adult uniform swag/doodads/geegaws. A related issue was the sheer volume of adult volunteers who served in district and council sinecures, and showed little to no interest in camping or what was happing at the troop level. They'd spend alot of time with each other. Virtually no help to the troop or pack.

 

Same observations from when I re-joined as a UC four years ago. I've been in three councils since due to military moves, and same trend: lots of adults, lots of swag on uniforms, not much interest in the out of doors.

 

So the ideal solution, at least to me, would be for the BSA to revive it's incredible past and get folks in the outdoors--adventure. But that runs contrary to BSA's present climate. Why? Many adults aren't comfortable in the outdoors. And there are ample rewards for not serving at troop level, in the woods. And like minded adults will recruit like minded....

 

To refocus on the outdoors, and scouting's past, would mean the loss of adults serving today, or at least some discomfort on their part. Many are more comfortable serving indoors or safe environments. And National has a wagonload of swag to reward them! The upside to refocus on adventure, and demphasis on adult uniforming: we'd attract many men and women who would never consider serving in BSA's present structure.

 

Adventure minded adults are the solution to this issue and many other problems in BSA's present stagnation. But honestly, it would be an uphill battle. The friction between indoor vs. outdoor types? The indoor ones would win, and have been winning for a long time.

[pohsuwed]

Maybe we were typing at the same time. But once again, how does the uniform dictate a person's indoor/outdoor emphasis? I show no correlation. However, pushing for more outdoor emphasis in leaders would help out a lot. I have told local leaders here that if they were to structure their programs around activities around scouts qualifying for the National Outdoor Award their programs would improve greatly and I think it would attract a lot more dedicated participation by scouts and more support from scout parents. This wouldn't ignore advancement to Eagle as this would happen more naturally in the process. Greater outdoor emphasis, in my opinion, would have a direct correlation to the improving the overall program and bringing it out of mediocrity.