Knots, to wear or not to wear?

[BrentAllen]

We should probably do away with the WC. Too much clutter on the uniform, ya know.

[FScouter]

Yeah. At the same time, get rid of the AOL patch, since weve been clued in now that it is against the rules to wear anything on the uniform that doesnt represent ones current status. That would also include the Eagle knot, and the AOL knot, and the youth-earned Religious Emblem knot.

[eaglescout1996]

'92

 

We really promote the European Camp Staff Program and usually have at least one person from our council go over there each year.

 

We're sending a pretty decent contingent to Sweeden this summer and at our last meeting we were approving applications for youth that are heading to Japan for the SAJ/BSA Friendship Program in February.

 

We even had a patrol of Scouts from Saudi Arabia in one of our NSJ Troops this summer.

[Oak Tree]

The number of knots that will fit on a uniform varies dramatically with the size of the uniform, the particular style, and the number of other badges one wishes to wear in that space.

 

In addition to the world crest, the centennial ring also takes up space here, as do the service stars. Even on an extra-large shirt, this can significantly limit the number of knots that can be worn unless you move the world crest up.

 

If you have a shirt that has ten inches or a bit less from the pocket seam to the shoulder seam (my XXL shirts range from 9" to 10"), and you wear a World Crest vertically centered, with no ring or stars, you can fit four rows of knots. If you add in the ring (takes about 3/8" on bottom) and stars (take about 1" = 5/8" star + 3/8" space over knot), you can only fit two rows of knots on any shirt with less than 9.5" from seam to seam. So some of my XXL shirts would take two rows, some would take three, given that I wear the knots and the ring.

 

In practicality, though, I've moved the World Crest up to accommodate a fourth row of knots.

 

A good sized Webelos Scout barely has room to correctly wear the WC, the ring, the star, and the knot. A smaller Cub Scout could not "correctly" wear all of those, but I wouldn't tell him that.

[acco40]

When I was a Unit Commissioner, I found it useful to let folks know that yes, I was once in their position (den leader, Scoutmaster, etc.) by wearing the knots for those positions that I had done in the past.

 

I also found that for some scouts, albeit not a majority, they actually voiced an opinion that I, by wearing my uniform and some of the awards that I had earned, must actually care about my position and Scouting. Sometimes it was a conversation piece too. It also showed them that I had NOT earned the Eagle award (I was never a Boy Scout) and I always encouraged them to "one up" the Scoutmaster and earn that rank/medal/knot for themselves.

 

The "adornment" that got the most attention from the boys however, were the shoulder loops I bought when I attended the Dorchester International Brotherhood Camporee - a set of Scouts Canada shoulder loops - Beavers (program for ages 5-7). That was a hot commodity. I would wear them something like once a year to a troop meeting. It got their attention, focused them on the uniform and showed them that even though they thought the Scoutmaster was always a very "by the book" type of guy, sometimes, just sometimes, he bent the rules too.(This message has been edited by acco40)

[Woapalanne]

F Scouter said "At the same time, get rid of the AOL patch, since weve been clued in now that it is against the rules to wear anything on the uniform that doesnt represent ones current status. That would also include the Eagle knot, and the AOL knot, and the youth-earned Religious Emblem knot."

 

Nope. My current status is that I DID earn the AOL as a kid, therefore that knot will stay. Same with the rest. I didn't earn the Scouter's Key in my current position, but it's not coming off. Same with the Den Leader Coach Award. It is correct to wear them, or you can omit them if you wish. No rule against either position (although I encourage Scouters to wear those he/she has earned.)

 

The AOL patch does not belong on a Scouter's uniform, as adults have a knot to represent it. However it IS correct on a Scout's uniform, if in the proper position.

[Beavah]

I think FScouter was being facetious, Woapalanne. He just likes takin' pot shots at da old Beavah

 

The capstone awards like Eagle fall under the "Once an Eagle, always an Eagle" thing, eh? So Eagle is a "current status".

 

Wearin' an Eagle knot as a Boy Scouter makes a lot of sense.

 

I'm not really sure that wearin' an AOL knot as a Venturing Advisor makes much sense.

 

But in all these things, the uniform is just part of the game of scouting, eh? Yeh can choose to follow the guidebook to the "T", includin' the Excess Insignia rule, or yeh can tweak it here and there, or yeh can add some fun doodads like the "Untrainable" patch. It's a tool. If yeh truly use it as a toy in the game of scouting and make it all about youth, then I figure you're doin' just fine. If some thoughts from others make yeh reflect on how you're really approachin' uniforming yourself, then that's a fine thing to. We should always be thoughtful about what we're doin', and reflect on how best to use the methods to reach boys.

 

Beavah

 

[ScoutBox]

@Beavah, I totally agree. very good points all around, and hitting eh nail on the head..

 

I don't mind the idea of Scouters wearing Youth earned awards like the AOL, and Eagle along with Religious etc.. on any uniform doing what ever. It is about the boys, and showing them in some way that you not only have done the work yourself, but understand what they are going through helps that little bit more. Connecting with then can sometimes be the hardest part. I have several Scouters in my Troop that earned Youth Awards in Scouting from other countries, UK, Sri Lanka, etc.. so why shouldn't they too have some way to show our boys that they too were involved in Scouting and earned Scouting's highest Awards in their countries. I haven't ever read anything about this in any book on the BSA so far. We did have a US Navy Officer in my WB course that wore both the US and UK Scouter's Uniform during the course because he is involved in both Organizations. And of course WB is the one award that can be earned and worn in most Scouting countries by it's adults.

 

Anyway, wear what you feel right about wearing. I just earned my first Knot. And I know it will be many, many years before another one is earned. But I really don't know..

 

SB

[Eagle92]

The capstone awards like Eagle fall under the "Once an Eagle, always an Eagle" thing, eh? So Eagle is a "current status".

 

Just as Eagle, Quartermaster, Silver, and the older Exploring Ranger and Air Scout Ace Awards are capstone awards, so to is the AOL. So it too shows current status.

[Woapalanne]

Scoutbox said: "It is about the boys, and showing them in some way that you not only have done the work yourself, but understand what they are going through helps that little bit more. Connecting with then can sometimes be the hardest part. "

 

You are exactly right, Sir. I consider it part of "Set the example."(This message has been edited by Woapalanne)

[pohsuwed]

Frankly, this same banter is found among youth scouts who compare their own merit badge sashes and rank advancement patches with those other scouts who have accomplished more, and then find ways to criticize those scouts. (It's just as easy to criticize the "easy knots" as it is to criticize the "easy merit badges".) It's pretty simple that the uniform is one of the methods of scouting for a reason. I would suggest using it as intended and wear the recognition you have earned. I would think that providing an achievement motivation to your scouts is much better than providing an attitude against achievement.

[Eagle707]

ScoutBox:

It is possible for Scouts who earned the highest rank elsewhere to wear their awards on their uniforms (provided it does not take the shape of a rank patch).

 

The Insignia Guide addresses this in a section called "Awards from Other Scout Associations."

http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/Media/InsigniaGuide/03.aspx

 

Granted, it says that such medals should be worn only when a Scouter from that country is present but, if they earned it in that country, they're a Scouter from that country right?

 

Also, if you have active Scouters who earned Wood Badge in another country, it can be transferred to a BSA uniform- just make sure they take the relevant US training too.

[Eagle007]

Just for the record, I don't recall my SM wearing or not wearing any knots on his uniform when I was a scout many moons ago. He may have and I just don't recall because that was not a point of scouting that he emphasized. What I do recall is that he wore one of the olive drab scouting uniforms. I also recall that he had the MOST EXCELLENT program bar none. There were no ASMs and it was strickly a boy lead troop. Times have changes because of the two deep and I can understand why. Don't get me wrong. We had parent volunteers (meaning the parents were around here and there) who bought equipment for the troop and even purchased a Chevrolet Suburban for the SM's use, mostly to hall the equipment around as we were the largest troop in the state. But on outings I don't recall anyone but my SM being there as an adult. The point of the matter at the time was that we didn't care about any knots our SM's uniform or any other scouter's uniform. What we did care whole heartedly about was the best program with the best SM. I still hold to that thought today with the exception of several ASMs who are excellent. Wearing or not wearing of the knots is not the end all be all of the program. In my opinion, it's your uniform. You can choose to look as tasteful or tacky through your eyes and the eyes of other scouters but I don't think the scouts really care. By the way I only wear the Eagle knot.

[pohsuwed]

What drives me crazy about these forums is that you have a bunch of adults who suggest using the book to provide direction as to what to do. They then make up their own rules and suggest correlations between ideas that really have no direct correlation.

 

For example, not having knots does not mean a scoutmaster is a better scoutmaster than others. He very well may be a better scoutmaster than others, but it is not due to his lack of knots (whether he has never earned one or just choose not to wear them, it doesn't matter). Likewise, having a rack of knots also doesn't automatically make a scoutmaster better than one who doesn't have them. However, I would venture to bet that the one with knots has a higher probability to be more in tune with the program to be better able to provide a better program to the boys.

 

You can inspire your boys by providing a great program to the boys, even without knots on your shirt. However, why not provide the additional inspiration to your boys by showing them your dedication to the program through the wearing of your knots on top of that? You don't have to choose between a quality program with no knots and a poor program with knots. This is a scouting myth that is perpetuated by the same dynamics found in schoolyards across the country. Those who call knots "bling" are teaching scouts to underplay the importance of achievement and the uniform. Frankly, those same individuals might as well tell their boys to just quit or stay at Tenderfoot their entire career so they can avoid the "bling trap" called advancement.

[Beavah]

I would venture to bet that the one with knots has a higher probability to be more in tune with the program to be better able to provide a better program to the boys

 

Yah, it's a nice theory, pohsued. It's never been my experience. Da biggest knot-wearers are usually district or council folks in my experience, because that's where adults might not know each other as well and perhaps where they want to show off to other adults. And as anyone can tell yeh, more than half of da district and council folks really aren't that great at providin' program or workin' with youth at the unit level.

 

Knots don't demonstrate your dedication to the boys at the unit level. The lads by and large don't know what any of 'em mean, eh? They know your dedication from experiencing your dedication first hand, and no number of knots yeh wear or don't wear will change the view they form from personal experience. Wearin' doodads for the boys is either superfluous (if yeh are dedicated) or hypocritical (if you're not). So there's little upside with da kids. Adults by and large wear knots for the benefit of other adults.

 

How much value yeh place on such displays is a personal thing, eh? Some think it's an important statement of personal achievement, some say it's an OK feature that can become ostentatious, some say it's little more than misplaced ego. Those tend to be pretty deep-seated personality traits and personal values, eh? Even religious values. Yeh usually can't change 'em. So it's important to understand if yeh do wear a lot of knots that some scouters, adults, and kids are goin' to see that as ego-driven foolishness; if yeh don't wear knots, some are goin' to see it as not respectin' the uniform or achievement.

 

Da BSA is flexible and splits the difference, eh? It allows full knot wear, and it allows no knot wear, but encourages folks to keep it clean and simple and limit it to awards relevant to your current status.

 

As to "bling" and schoolyards, I don't quite get it. Da real awards a lad gets for achievement are the satisfaction of the achievement, eh? The ability to do stuff he couldn't do before. Personal Growth method... not to mention those other methods like Youth Leadership and Outdoors and such. Uniform is just one method, and wearin' achievements is just one small part of uniforming. Kids deeply value lots of things without wearin' 'em on their chest - everything from da high score in a video game to the state championship to being first chair in da orchestra to their high school diploma with honors. Because we don't wear clothing to reflect any of those things, are we really undervaluing achievement?

 

I personally don't think so. And I reckon there's a risk of overemphasizing the clothing so da patch becomes the goal, rather than the achievement or da personal dedication to service. So me, I'm not much of a knot-wearer. But I do value achievement, and I do encourage the lads to keep workin' beyond Tenderfoot. For the fun, for da adventure, for the growth, for the challenge. Just not for da patch.

 

Beavah