Knots, to wear or not to wear?

[camilam42]

Let me pose this question.....

 

If the BSA intended for us (Scouts and Scouters) to earn the award, but not promote the award or only promote it as we see fit, why bother making the knot system?

 

My answer....

 

It would seem that the concept of the knot system is to serve as an example for the Scouts. If they know, understand, and recognize the knots, see that they are being worn and educated on the reason why the knot system is in place, then I believe that the knots, no matter how many earned should be worn.

 

The impotice falls upon us, as Scouters, to show the Scouts that we are serious about providing them the best possible experience. This means that we should attend functions in uniform. That means that we should be showing the Scouts that wearing the proper uniform is not only mandatory, but also desired. An example: If I earned a knot and did not wear it on my "Class A" then I would be out of uniform, because I am not exposing the Scouts to the fullness of what I have earned in order to make them better Scouts.

 

Caveat: Does this mean that I am going to wear all of my regalia in the field when camping? No, but I do have a separate shirt for that purpose. That shirt has the basic patching on it, minus any temporary badging, pocket flaps, quality awards, etc. That is pretty standard though and not what I am speaking about. The Scouts see me camp 3 or 4 times a year (I'm a Cub Scouter, not a Boy Scouter).

 

Am I going to vilify someone who doesn't wear all of his knots? No, but if I know that someone has earned a knot and is not wearing it, on purpose, because he is trying to be humble, then I would simply point him to understanding what humility really means. False humility is worse than genuine humility for the simple fact that it doesn't serve the greater good. In this instance, I am of the opninion that if the Scouts are enhanced because they see knots, which they are (even if they won't admit it, they are kids and teens after all), then we, as Scouters, should do all we can to promote proper Scouting in even the smallest measure, which in this case means wearing the knots, as Scouters.

[NeilLup]

Hello Camilam,

 

You raise some very good points. I don't think that anyone has a problem with one knot, or a few knots or likely even several knots.

 

The problem and risk can come when an individual has so many knots that it risks looking silly under normal circumstances. Or when knots, or lack of knots is used to make an individual uncomfortable.

 

I have seen an individual with at least 21 knots -- seven rows. I fear that this did seem to be a bit much. But I kept that to myself. If it made him happy and encouraged him to do good things for youth, more power to him.

[camilam42]

@ neilLup,

 

"The problem and risk can come when an individual has so many knots that it risks looking silly under normal circumstances. Or when knots, or lack of knots is used to make an individual uncomfortable.

 

I have seen an individual with at least 21 knots -- seven rows. I fear that this did seem to be a bit much. But I kept that to myself. If it made him happy and encouraged him to do good things for youth, more power to him."

 

Hello back, I understand your statement, and I am very well aware of how ego can play into this. However, are we not supposed to espouse all of the Scout Law. We, as Scouters should assume, because it is to be so, until proven otherwise that he who wears the knots is trustworthy, obedient, and reverent. I'll speak to each:

 

Trustworthy -- That he is wearing what he has earned and doing so in a manner that is exposing Scouts to the best possible example.

 

Obedient -- That he is wearing his uniform as dictated by the BSA. This would include wearing all of the knots which are prescribed and in the manner in which they should be worn.

 

Reverent -- That is is showing proper respect and honor to the uniform of the BSA. Not for himself, but for the betterment of Scouting.

 

Now, if those things are assumed which they should be, until PROVEN otherwise, I would say have them wear the knots as prescribed and give no grief. Although, if they are not then not only are they breaking the Scout Law, but so are we, by not holding them accountable. Remember we are to be loyal. Loyalty is not only to the USA, but also to the BSA. I don't think that calling someone out is out of line.

 

An example, if I were to show up at your Roundtable without my Pack numbers on, but everything else, would I be called out on it (in a perfect world)?

 

My answer....

 

Yes. And I should be. I would be out of uniform.

 

Continuing the example, if I were to show up at your Roundtable without all of the proper knots, which I have earned, would I be called out on it (in a perfect world)?

 

My answer....

 

Yes. And I should be. I would be out of uniform.

 

Finally, for the fellow that is wearing 21 knots, I believe that is a breech in uniform etiquette. If memory serves, I think that the most that can be worn at any one time is 9. So I would call him out on that. He can choose which 9 to wear, but I believe that it is only 9, although there are whispers that this may be expanded or changing.

 

Thanks for your kind reply to my previous post.

[VigilEagle04]

@camilam

"Finally, for the fellow that is wearing 21 knots, I believe that is a breech in uniform etiquette. If memory serves, I think that the most that can be worn at any one time is 9. So I would call him out on that. He can choose which 9 to wear, but I believe that it is only 9, although there are whispers that this may be expanded or changing."

 

There is no specific number given for how many knots to wear. Some point to older publications guiding Scouters to minimize things on their uniform for the reasoning to wear fewer knots, but there is no number. I know one of the members of the National Venturing Committee, he's a local dentist here. Last count on his uniform were 19 knots, and he's a very "by the book" type of guy.

[Eagle92]

Vig is correct in that there is currently NO limit to the number of knots you are able to wear at one time, except for Sea Scouts and their leaders, which is 6.

 

Currently the only place I have found the 9 knot limit is in the WB syllbus. It states on pg 26

 

It is recommended (emphasis mine) that Wood Badge Staff members ( again emph. mine) not wear more than nine square knots on their uniforms.

 

So the 9 knot rule that may have been around in the past, no longer exist. WB staffers are recommended to limit to 9 knots.

[camilam42]

@ VigilEagle04 and Eagle92,

 

Thanks for the clarification. If that is indeed the case, and I have no reason to disagree at this point, then I would say wear what you've earned. Might it look a little garish? Probably, but then again, there are those that would say an Eagle with all his palms, merit badges, temp badging, den chief cords, etc....would look pretty garish too. This is all a means to an end. It is to promote Scouting and provide an example to the Scouts. Since knots do that, I have no issue with wearing the appropriate regalia. Again, if we are to assume the Scout Law, then we are to be trustworthy and that means that we are to trust that the Scouter with 21 knots is doing it for the betterment of Scouting and the Scouts themselves. I don't see a viable need to go any deeper, unless there is due cause where the trust has been broken by that Scouter.

[jr56]

Unless I am mistaken, there has never been a limit on the number of knots that can be worn on a Boy Scout Uniform. There has been the urban legend that any more than 15 is considered in poor taste. But nothing official in print. The current uniform insignia guide, in order to go along with the wood badge syllabus I guess, reccomends that no more than 9 knots be worn, but again, it is a reccomendation, and a throwback to the "good old boys woodbadge club" that would wear no awards of any kind on their uniforms. Don't get me wrong, the number of knots that an indiviual chooses to wear on his or her uniform is a matter of personal choice. There is no restriction on it. Yes, it has been my personal experience that youth are impressed by the proper wearing of awards, and it exposes them to areas of scouting, and scouting opportunities that they never realized existed.

[Beavah]

Yah, camilam42, welcome to the forums and thanks for your comments!

 

Can yeh provide a citation for the claim that an adult leader who doesn't wear all of his knots is "out of uniform". That's a new one on me, but hey, old scouters like me learn new things all the time. . I note that not even the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff wears all of his ribbons. I provided earlier in da thread the citation that suggests adult leaders should only wear awards relevant to their current status in the program, and should strive to keep their uniform from a seeming excess of insignia.

 

So I think we need to be a bit circumspect about approaching others either for too many or too few knots. As NeilLup suggests, I mostly don't pay attention to adult uniforms, eh? I wouldn't say a thing to anyone about their uniform unless they asked (or unless they started picking on someone else's uniform, in which case I reckon they're fair game ). But when asked, I explain the excess insignia rule, da balance of good taste, the negative first impression it leaves in people who aren't familiar with scouting, and my personal experience that the most beknotted fellows are frequently the less capable scouters, particularly at relating to kids.

 

I also agree with other fellows who mention that the boys arent really interested in or impressed by the knots. I've sat in on hundreds of Eagle BORs, and I've never once had a lad comment on his adult leader's knots. I honestly don't think yeh could find a single lad anywhere in the program who would claim he knows his SM is doin' a good job for him because of his knots. The boys know if the SM is there for him by other sorts of things, not the uniform.

 

Now don't take this the wrong way, but I think yeh also want to think a bit more deeply about some of your definitions. Humility in not adorning oneself or calling attention to oneself is real humility, not false. Especially at a Court of Honor where the focus should be on the boys, and not on us. Reverence, our 12th point of the Scout Law, in my opinion has nothing to do with revering the BSA or its uniform. In fact, many if not most of our religious traditions in this country would consider that idolatrous, the very opposite of real reverence. Scouting is a great movement, but it is not owed reverence. Obedience I dealt with above, eh? Wearing a full display might be considered disobedient by folks who take the guidebooks seriously, but whatever yeh think about that, it's clear that wearing a full display is not required, and therefore not doing so is not disobedient. And I don't even get the Trustworthy claim

 

Uniforming is a method of scouting, a tool to accomplish something with young men. Can I ask what goals yeh have for youth that yeh think are best addressed by adult knot displays?

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[camilam42]

@ Beavah,

 

"Can yeh provide a citation for the claim that an adult leader who doesn't wear all of his knots is "out of uniform"."

 

If you look to the inspection sheet, it speaks to what should be above the left pocket, correct. It says, "Embroidered square knots are centered above the pocket in rows of three." One will get 5 points for having the knots on the uniform correctly placed. Logic would dictate that if you had knots missing and/or not applied at all, with knowledge that they were to be there, then you would be docked 5 points on your inspection. That seems pretty official to me. While you may disagree, if you are being authentic to the understanding of what the inspection does for Scouting, the only logical conclusion would be, wear all your knots or you are going to be docked 5 points for being out of uniform. Seems to be a pretty clear understanding of knots.

 

"I also agree with other fellows who mention that the boys arent really interested in or impressed by the knots....The boys know if the SM is there for him by other sorts of things, not the uniform."

 

I disagree. I had a new Boy Scout come up to me at the last Pack meeting I attended and say that he and I shared a knot. It was the religious knot, but he noticed and made mention of it. As far as the last part of your statement, I would say that if you had ended it with "not JUST the uniform." I would have no issue at all, but you didn't. I think that Scouts do know that the Leader is there for him because of his uniform. If that were not the case, then why bother with adult uniforms at all?

 

"Humility in not adorning oneself or calling attention to oneself is real humility, not false. Especially at a Court of Honor where the focus should be on the boys, and not on us."

 

Not necessarily. Here is my reasoning...if one uses humility as a crutch to not do what is right, then he is practicing false humility. So if one were to say, "I am not going to do X because it might draw attention to myself, even though I know that X is the right thing to do, based upon the positive example or exposure it could have..." then it is false humility. It defeats the purpose. From reading the posts that I have, this is the attitude that I see many taking about the knot system and that is why I have said what I have said.

 

"Reverence, our 12th point of the Scout Law, in my opinion has nothing to do with revering the BSA or its uniform. In fact, many if not most of our religious traditions in this country would consider that idolatrous, the very opposite of real reverence. Scouting is a great movement, but it is not owed reverence."

 

I think that you misunderstand what I am saying. I am certainly not saying that we put the BSA or it's particulars on the same level as God, but we should show proper respect or reverence to the institution. Under no circumstances am I saying that we should revere the BSA as we do God. If that is how it came across, I apologize.

 

"Obedience I dealt with above, eh? Wearing a full display might be considered disobedient by folks who take the guidebooks seriously, but whatever yeh think about that, it's clear that wearing a full display is not required, and therefore not doing so is not disobedient."

 

I don't necessarily think that you did. I think that if my reasoning stands, then it falls into this category. Doesn't a Scout follow the rules of the family, school and Troop? If the Troop is in line with the Council and the Council is in line with National, then wouldn't it follow that by being properly patched he is being obedient? Just thinking logically on my part.

 

"And I don't even get the Trustworthy claim"

 

We should trust our leaders to do what is expected of them, in order to provide the best example and exposure to the Scouts.

 

"Uniforming is a method of scouting, a tool to accomplish something with young men."

 

I couldn't agree with you more. However, is a dull knife a good tool? Is a uniform that is improperly patched a good tool?

 

"Can I ask what goals yeh have for youth that yeh think are best addressed by adult knot displays?"

 

Sure you can ask. I am going to be leading Parvuli Dei and Ad Altare Dei classes. I wear the youth knot for Religious awards, because I earned them when I was in Scouting. By my having the knot, I can speak directly and forcefully about the program, because I have experienced it. Once I have spoken about this, it will be immediately recognizable that I have achieved what they are aspiring to. It will serve as witness to the fact that I have accomplished the same thing a generation earlier. It is a bridge and hopefully a bond for those Scouts who will be eligible to wear the same knot.

 

BTW, at this point, I only have two knots. I have the Arrow of Light and the Youth Religious knots. I don't have plans for getting any more, as I don't believe in self nomination, but if I am privileged enough to earn another knot someday, I will wear it proudly and I will make sure that the Scouts around me know why I have it. Because it educates them on a different level. I would be willing to bet that the vast majority of Scouts who know about the Silver Beaver, Antelope, Buffalo are because they have seen either the knot or the medal on a leader. That is telling.

[Beavah]

I would be willing to bet that the vast majority of Scouts who know about the Silver Beaver, Antelope, Buffalo are because they have seen either the knot or the medal on a leader.

 

Yah... the vast majority of da couple dozen scouts that would recognize a silver critter award.

 

Seriously, most adult volunteers don't know what all the knots stand for, eh? The kids are by and large clueless.

 

I think there's merit in a Boy Scouter wearin' his Eagle knot (it's his "current status" because once an Eagle, always an Eagle ). I think yeh can make the same claim for a Cub Scouter wearin' his AOL or a Venturing Advisor wearin' his Exploring Silver or a fellow who is a counselor for a youth religious award wearin' the knot.

 

Generally speakin', though, I think adults do better by earning the adult religious award for their denomination if it's available. That would seem to speak more eloquently to the nature of a lifelong commitment to faith than parading about with the award yeh earned as a middle schooler. Just as earning the Boy Scout adult awards as a Boy Scouter speaks more eloquently to your commitment to the program than parading about with your cub scouter knots as a Boy Scouter. I would think a lad who really knew the knot system would be less impressed with your Ad Altare Dei and would instead ask yeh where your St. George knot is, eh?

 

Of course your church, more than most, places a lot of emphasis on personal humility, eh? Your religious orders pretty much take as a uniform the clothing of the poor at the time they were founded, and eschew any personal award wear. Most Catholic scouters I know are not big-time knot wearers. So yeh might not wear your St. George.

 

I had a new Boy Scout come up to me at the last Pack meeting I attended and say that he and I shared a knot. It was the religious knot, but he noticed and made mention of it.

 

Yah, except by that logic of "shared insignia" we shouldn't be wearin' knots at all, eh? Because the lads can't earn knots (youth religious knot aside). We should instead keep the badges of rank we earned as youth on our pockets and wear our old MB sashes.

 

But I think you're right. You can do all kinds of things with adult association around patches, especially sharing tales from your own scouting days as a way of spurring and really listening to their tales. Best is a patch blanket on a campout. Can spur all kinds of conversations.

 

That's why the BSA Insignia Guide recommends patch blankets and jackets over excessive knot wear. I think adhering to the BSA guidelines and to the long tradition in Scouting of subdued, tasteful wearin' of select adult awards tied to your program is the "right thing to do."

 

Beavah

[camilam42]

@ Beaveah,

 

I see your points, I really do. I'm not trying to be difficult, but rather I am enjoying this conversation. That being said; you say, "Yah... the vast majority of da couple dozen scouts that would recognize a silver critter award.

 

Seriously, most adult volunteers don't know what all the knots stand for, eh? The kids are by and large clueless."

 

If they saw it they would most likely ask, just becuase of childlike curiousity. And Scouters should take the time to know what all the knots and awards are, for both Scouts and Scouters. I firmly believe that this is one of the reasons that so many Scouters don't get the recognition they deserve. While I know that Scouting is about the Scouts, the awards Scouters get show that they have given to the Scouts and it should make the boys proud to see their leaders patched.

 

"Of course your church, more than most, places a lot of emphasis on personal humility, eh? Your religious orders pretty much take as a uniform the clothing of the poor at the time they were founded, and eschew any personal award wear. Most Catholic scouters I know are not big-time knot wearers. So yeh might not wear your St. George."

 

Religious orders, yes. Diocesan, not necessarily. We do have a rank system that is in place. Clerics, deacons and priests wear black. Monsignors wear black trimmed in fuschia and/or red, depending on their rank of monsignor. Bishops wear fuschia and Cardinals wear scarlet. So there is distinction. Also, certain awards, medals, and adornments can be worn if presented, earned or awarded. But by and large, you're correct. BTW, I am not eligible for the St. George yet, and if I were, it wouldn't be up to me to have it conferred. I'm just saying.

 

"Yah, except by that logic of "shared insignia" we shouldn't be wearin' knots at all, eh? Because the lads can't earn knots (youth religious knot aside). We should instead keep the badges of rank we earned as youth on our pockets and wear our old MB sashes."

 

I see what you're saying, However, I think that Scouters should be wearing something more subdued. It isn't about us parading around in MB sashes and old ranks. However, we do have a way of being recognized for our good service and that is through the knot system. It should be noted that I support the knot system for two reasons, 1) It shows whoever is looking that the Scouter has done great service for Scouting and Scouts and 2) It is a tool to help Scouts be more proud of their leaders (even if they don't understand that completely).

 

I do agree about the idea of patch blankets....I also agree with your last statement 100%. "That's why the BSA Insignia Guide recommends patch blankets and jackets over excessive knot wear. I think adhering to the BSA guidelines and to the long tradition in Scouting of subdued, tasteful wearin' of select adult awards tied to your program is the "right thing to do."" But that doesn't mean that we don't wear knots altogether. It means that we wear what is appropriate.

[Scoutfish]

" We should instead keep the badges of rank we earned as youth on our pockets and wear our old MB sashes."

 

I have seen many adult leaders in both Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts mention that they were not in scouts themselves as youth.

 

 

I am in that group myself. When I was of the scouting age, wether or not there was a local unit is beyond me, but I can tell you that neither I or my friends knew of it. No posters,no signs, no public activities (parades, food drives, popcorn,etc..)

I never saw a single flyer or ad for cub scouts. Never had a DE or CM show up at my school and talk about how great it was.

 

Funny thing is, I lived about 30 miles from Wilmington, NC Home of the Caper Fear Council. I know it's been around for a long, long time. But that 30 miles was also through two different couinties.

 

Now, I live about 27 miles from Wilmington and 1 county closer. Matter of fact, I am in the North East Cape Fear Distric of the Cape Fear Council.

 

Anyways, I am the Cub Master of My pack, Before that, I was an ADL for Bears, before that Committee member.

 

As a Cub Master, I am trying my damdest to step things up, make them more lively and more fun. I have been told that I am already making a difference ( thought I don't see it just yet).

 

So, I plan on EARNING that Cub Master knot. Not just to have the knot as bling or toot my horn. But because by EARNING that knot, I can know that I did not just take the position in title only. I wasn;t just filling a spot or taking that position for bragging rights on an inflated ego.

 

So it's not so much about the knot, but what I did to EARN trhat knot.

 

And if I earn that knot, I'll proudly wear it

 

But you will never see any of my youth earned badges since I wasn't a scout in my youth.

 

Not that "that" seems to matter to any of the active Cubs in our pack right now.

 

 

[clemlaw]

Just out of curiousity, do Boy Scouts typically wear their Arrow of Light badge throughout their time in Boy Scouts? I could be mistaken, but I'm pretty sure I stopped wearing it after I outgrew my first Boy Scout shirt. I don't think I bothered putting it on (ok, ok, asking my mom to put it on) my new shirt. It seemed more like a Cub Scout thing to me.

 

Like I think I mentioned above, I was kind of surprised to learn that there was an adult knot for it. I do wear it as a Cub Scout leader, because it shows that there's something they're working on now that they'll carry with them into adulthood. But if I get a new shirt when I'm a Boy Scout leader, I doubt if I'll pay the $1.49 for a new one.

[camilam42]

@ clemlaw,

 

I've checked several sites, including troop level, district level, and council level and it seems in all cases that if the Arrow of Light has been awarded, then it is to be placed in the appropriate spot. No place says that it can be forgone because of a new shirt.

 

I could be wrong...

[clemlaw]

Oh, yes, I know it's officially part of the uniform until the stroke of midnight on the Scout's 18th birthday.

 

I'm just wondering whether it's customary for Scouts to wear it after they hit the higher ranks. It's been a long time, but I don't think we really worried about it back in the day.

 

In general, we had fewer adornments to worry about. As far as I remember, everything you needed to know about where to put things on the uniform was contained inside the back cover of the Handbook.