Knots, to wear or not to wear?

[ScoutBox]

How long has these Scouter's decorations /awards been around. I never saw anything like this when I was a boy in Scouting, although that wasn't in the 60's was in the late 70's. damn! I just did a mental calculation and realized that I'm getting old.. never used the 70's and myself in the same phrase before..

[jr56]

They have been proliferating steadily for the last 25 years or so.

There are now over 50 existing and former knots that can be earned, or awarded. If the BSA considers it such a crime to wear them properly on your uniform, why do they create so many of them?

I really don't care how many knots anyone wears. People who scorn me because of something as silly as how many square knots I have on my uniform, would find another excuse if I didn't wear a single one.

In my opinion, those people are leftovers from the good old woodbadge boys club, and want to make a show out of how little they can wear on their uniform and belittle anybody else who dares to wear more.

[Eagle92]

One thing I think everyone needs to remember, whether you beleive in wearing everythign you have, wearing nothing, or wearing only what is specific to your program:

 

WE ARE IN IT FOR THE YOUTH SO LET OUR ACTIONS SPEAK LOUDER THAN OUR WORDS AND WHAT WE WEAR ON OUR UNIFORM (caps for emphasis, not shouting.).

[jr56]

Actually, an adult leader is an adult leader in the scouting program.

For example, I am involved in council training activities, so if I didn't wear the knots I had earned as a cub scout leader, for example, is that saying that cub scouting is not important, that cub scout leader training is not important?

There are instances in the uniform guide where awards are transferred from one youth program to another (arrow of light, eagle, religious awards)

I feel that the uniform guides references to wearing only what is current, apply to things like wearing multiple POS patches, wearing mutiple quality unit patches, things like that.

Frankly, I am surprised at some of the comments Beavah has made. I have admired his postings for a long time and hold him in high regard. For him to compare somebody who is a fellow scouter who's only crime is wearing what Beavah feels is too many knots, to a former politician who committed actual crimes against society is quite surprising to me. I will not lower myself to sling anything back at him, or any other scout leader for that matter. We are all in this together serving the boys.

[emb021]

"How long has these Scouter's decorations /awards been around. I never saw anything like this when I was a boy in Scouting, although that wasn't in the 60's was in the late 70's. damn!"

 

while many awards have only come in the last couple of decades, several awards/knots have been around since the 1930s.

 

The silver beaver, antelope, and buffalo have been around since the 1930s & 40s. The scouter's key and training award came out in the 1940s. knots for eagle scout and some other youth awards have been around since the 1940s.

 

cub scouter awards were revamped in the 1980s, I think.

 

[Beavah]

For him to compare somebody who is a fellow scouter who's only crime is wearing what Beavah feels is too many knots, to a former politician who committed actual crimes against society is quite surprising to me.

 

Yah, just to be clear...

 

My comment about Spiro Agnew had nothing to do with wearing knots, eh?

 

It was a response to BrentAllen referring to those who expressed a different view as "nattering nabobs". For those of yeh not old enough to remember, "nattering nabobs of negativity" was a phrase coined by Spiro Agnew to refer to the press. It was, of course, the fault of the press that Agnew committed tax fraud... at least in Agnew's mind. A corrupt politician's attack on the folks who helped hold him accountable for his behavior is not an example I personally would choose for Scouting. Though I guess I did take it as a personal complement

 

For wearing knots, I think it's just a tool, eh? What yeh choose depends on your goals. Just like over in da LDS thread, eh? If the goal is developing quorum identify, then the age-based setup makes sense, and I support 'em in doin' it. If the goal is outdoor skills development or a high level of alignment with the rest of the US Scouting community, then possibly the 11 year old YM first year program isn't as good a choice.

 

So my question to folks is just what your goals are, eh? For my goals for boys and for workin' with adult volunteers, following the traditional BSA guidance makes more sense, or even being a bit more conservative. But I don't think anybody should be chained to the guidebooks, eh? If yeh have some goal that yeh feel a "full display" helps yeh achieve (despite da perceptions and feedback of fellow scouters expressed here), then go for it. I don't see it myself.

 

Beavah

 

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[DeaconLance]

Taken from the Scoutmaster's Handbook, 5th edition, 1959.

 

"While Scouters may wear the insignia to which they are entitled, a 'total display' may not be in the best taste if the uniform looks overdecorated. Unauthorized insignia or incorrect wearing of authorized insignia is always wrong. Scouters must set the example for Scouts in this matter. The Scoutmaster who wears only his Scoutmaster emblem, council or community strip, troop numeral, and service star on his uniform is never guilty of poor taste."

 

Also something worth noting, when this handbook was issued there were only 10 square knots available: Honor Medal, Silver Buffalo, Silver Antelope, Silver Beaver, Medal of Merit, Scoutmaster Key, Scouter Training Award, Eagle, Quatermaster, and Silver. At this time when you earned the Scoutmaster Key you took the Scouter Training Award off, so 9 would have been the max and that would have been improbable.

 

I note in British Scouting only one knot in a category is worn. If you are awarded Silver Wolf you take Silver Acorn off. I wouldn't mind seeing this either.

 

The BSA already regulates the number of medals that may be worn at 5, Sea Scouting does the same with knots at 6. I simply think the entire BSA should follow their lead. It looks better and keeps egos in check. As for inspiration/conversation starters, 1, 3, or 6 knots can start a inspire/conversation as well as 9 or 12 or 15. I remember when a Scouter with three knots was considered highly decorated.

[blade1158]

Opinions, opinions. Bottom line, if you have earned or received a knottable award, you may choose to wear it or you may choose to not wear it for whatever reason. My pet peeve is Scouters who wear more than two Cub Scout leader award knots. BUT, if they've earned them, they may wear them, my opinion means absolutely nothing.

 

If you want to wear them, fine. If you don't want to wear them, fine. Your actions will speak louder than what is, or isn't, on your uniform.

[Beavah]

Yah, of course "opinions".

 

That's what the original poster asked for, eh? Our opinions on the issue.

 

Yeh didn't think you were going to get something other than people's opinions on an Internet forum, did ya?

 

Beavah

[BrentAllen]

natter

v natter [ˈnӕtə]

to chatter or talk continuously, usually about unimportant things

 

Yep, MY opinion.

 

The term was actually written by William Safire.

[Woapalanne]

All this reminds me of (true story) the first time when, in high school, I came home from a date with lipstick on my face and my mother made an adverse comment. My Dad said: "If you earn a badge, wear it!"

[nugent725]

Woapallane,

 

I have to say...that is awesome!

 

On a second note, I agree with you. You earn it, you wear it. I just say keep it in taste.

[Beavah]

Yah, so for da "you earn it, you wear it" crowd, what do yeh feel about an 18 year old ASM wearin' an Eagle rank badge (or a Life rank badge for that matter)? How about a first year boy scout wearing a webelos badge?

 

They earned 'em, eh? Quite possibly they earned 'em right before their status changed so they never got the chance to wear them. No different than a cub scouter who moves up to boy scouting right after earning a cub-related knot.

 

Do we tell 'em that da guideline about excess insignia only applies to youth, but da adults can do whatever they want? As often as not, the youth put a lot more time and effort into earnin' their awards than a typical adult knot, eh?

 

Just curious.

 

Beavah

 

[Eagle92]

Beavah,

 

Good question, and I think we all know the answer to that.

 

One difference is that when a youth fills out an application for a unit, he signs on as a Boy Scout, a Sea Scout, a Cub Scout, or a Venturer, and at one time there were separate applications for the different porgrams.

 

But leaders always filled out one leader application and are offically called Scouters, irregardless of the position they are serving in.

 

Also forgot to add the knots, for the most part, are adult recognitions, not youth recognition, except AOL, Eagle QM, Silver, and the older youth knots.(This message has been edited by eagle92)

[OldGreyEagle]

I love reading the works of Thomas Hardy, "Far From the Madding Crowd" and "Tess of the D'ubervilles" are significantly poignant.

 

One of the above two has a comment on old English life that families living in the country had a real quandry on their hands when it came to church attendance. If you showed up to services on Sunday too often, well then you were just trying to show up your neighbors and were trying to be much holier than they and were being to prideful and needed to be a little more humble.

 

If you stayed away from church too often, well then, you were a heathen, a ne'er-do-well, a miscreant of all sorts.

 

I beleive the correct mix of church attendance was based on each individual. What they did was correct, what others did was either pridefull or deviant

 

Poor Tess,

Poor Jude