Knots, to wear or not to wear?

[desertrat77]

Posuhwed, I'm with you.

 

To better summarize my screed about the correlation, I'd say it this way: BSA amply rewards administrative activity--attending meetings and training, conducting same, etc. Hence profuse adult uniform bling, and indoor-focused adults being attracted to the program.

 

Shift the National focus to the outdoors, with more rewards to adults who lead and organize rugged outdoor activity, and that's when the BSA revives.

 

Outdoor-minded men and women join, kids are excited and recruit.

 

Reward adventure.

 

[BrentAllen]

Sorry, but I disagree. We need district and council Scouters, to do what they do. Conduct training, provide Roundtable, help with recharter, oversee council properties, etc. Our district committee has several members who are retired, in their 60's or better, and they find areas where they can serve. They don't go on high adventure trips or many camping trips, but they don't need to. Camping is handled at the Troop level. The district serves the units by providing support - training, RT, etc. District volunteers don't need to go camping to serve units. They can help a unit recruit additional Scouters - that would be their best way to serve a unit.

 

Taking district and council Scouters out of uniform would do nothing to get Troops outdoors more. Taking them out of uniform would serve no purpose at all, except to decrease the number of Scouters who are willing to stay in the program and help after their sons age out.

[Eagle92]

My thoughts.

 

SCOUTING IS OUTING and it's expected that folks will be outdoors. The knots are recognition for additional training and service.

 

District and council level folks are needed to support program. That retired school teacher who helps out at CSDC and various Cub scout events is just as valuable as the den leader, b/c without the district folks, unit folks would have to take time away from their sons and cubs to put on activities. Ditto the Retired gov employee who helps secure such items as bullets, rifles, and ropes and his NRA certification or various Boy Scout activities. Heck most of the district folks I know HAVE been in the field, and for whatever reason, usually health, cannot keep up like they use to in the field.

 

Heck best example I can give of that is a big FOS donor who was once an SM, led a Philmont contingent,etc etc who visits every outdoor activity he can and makes sure that the council camps have what they need to provide program, i.e. workign it out that his company would provide meals at summer camp when the dining hall burned down, and then being a major contributor for rebuilding the dining hall.

 

 

As for wearing knots, that your call, wear them or don't wear them, it's your call. UNLESS you are a Sea Scout leader who is limited to 6 knots on the whites and SDBs, and know knots on the working khakis. HMM wonder if I can wear knots and patches on the Dress khakis?

 

BTW Poh,

 

I do have a pic of BP not in uniform receiving a salute form a Boy Scout. That's the only photo I've seen of him with a scout and he not being in uniform, other than the BROWNSEA photos, but hey that was the first campout!

 

[desertrat77]

Brent, Eagle, we need district scouters, true.

 

But we don't need as many as we think we do. And we need them to be more focused on pack/troop/crew/ship success, rathering than perpetuating the administration of district matters. I feel the same way about council and national scouters too.

 

And while they may not camp as much as a unit lever scouter, they should still convey a spirit of adventure through their attitude and the programming they promote.

[Beavah]

Yah, this thread took a twist, eh?

 

No uniforms for MCs and district staff, hmmmm... or perhaps no knot-style awards for anything that doesn't involve a lot of time in the field with kids.

 

Yah, maybe that has some merit, especially for us district and council folks.

 

Like others, I've seen plenty of delightful district and council volunteers and pros. And, like others, I've seen districts where it's become a retiree's old boys club dat's almost completely divorced from kids and woods. Or worse. On average, it's often more toward the latter, to be honest.

 

Of course da rest of the world doesn't have our same structure. Professional scouters are a rarity in da worldwide movement, and council/district/national scouters are far fewer percentage-wise. BSA scoutin' is pretty much an oddity. Others seem to run quite well and happily without as many non-direct-contact leaders, so I reckon we'd also do fine. It's healthier in a lot of ways, IMHO.

 

So yah, I think a sound rule of business is that yeh have to tailor your incentives to what yeh care about. Since we care most about kids and good unit scouting, the emphasis of uniformin' and especially of awards should focus almost exclusively on unit scouters. Da rest of us are just support staff, eh? We do what we do only to help those unit scouters succeed. They're the ones puttin' in da real "hour a week."

 

Beavah

 

[Eagle92]

Desert,

To a degree I must respectfully disagree with ya. Depending on your area, you could do with less, or in my case, you could need more. My district committee has consisted of folks wearing both unit leader and dis com hats. Kinda rough to start a program, say a district CS Family Campout, where all your District Cub Folks also serve as DLs, WDLS, and CMs. But as with anything in scouting, scouting varies by location.

 

Now I do agree that they need to promote program, program, program.

[Scoutfish]

I am by no means trying to sound like a 20 year veteran of Scouting , nor do I want to appear to be some sort of upper scale elite class of snob........BUT

 

If anybody thinks wearing a uniform or wearing a knot makes or breaks your program......

then it's time you stop blaming the uniform for your problems and start looking at other things.

[BrentAllen]

Troop Committee:

COR

CC

Secretary

Treasurer

Advancement Coordinator

Training Coordinator

Membership Chair

 

I fail to see how filling those positions with an "outdoor" person is going to change the program. Seems like we have many threads here complaining about having too many adults on campouts. These folks are already supporting the Troop's outdoor program, by doing their job. They deal with the business side of the Troop, not the program side.

 

District Committee:

DC Chair

Training Chair

Advancement Chair

Finance Chair

Membership Chair

 

Ditto the statement above.

 

I'm curious which knots have gotten your skivies in a wad? Exactly which knots are MCs and district Scouters sitting around earning and flaunting that is bothering you so much?

 

I have to say, of all the issues we have discussed here, this one has to be the most ridiculous.

[Scoutfish]

None of our committee members wear unifoms. They don't even wear hats or polo type shirts with any emblem or logo on them. They wear jeans, t shirts, shorts, flip flops , and one even wears spandex all the time( female , okay? )

 

Our COR, does wear a Australian type mesh hat with a BSA emblem on it, but everything else is just normal clothes.

 

Our CC wears clean clothes when making announcements at a pack meeting, and sometimesa pack sweatshirt if it's chilly out, but that's it!

 

Funny thing is........nobody cares. We leaders war our uniforms as much as possible, but occasionally, a DL come to a pack or den meetuing straight from work and doesn't have time to put on a uniform.

 

I can't say the kids care. Nor does the den meeting crash.

 

We try to wear our uniforms as much as possible. But we know it's not the end of the world if we don't..

 

Knots? If I have earned them, I'm gonna wear them. But knots are not the reason I am here , nor are they my main focus.

 

As of right now, I do not have any knots, but I happen to be very, very close to earning one right now JUST by doing what I would be doing anyways even if knots didn't exist!

[desertrat77]

Eagle, I understand there are some thinly staffed districts out there. I was painting with a broad brush, admittedly, but I move around alot and see the the opposite of "thin" as well.

 

Brent, no wadding here, and no particular knot is going to make or break anything. My point is the emphasis on adult matters, adult staff positions and awards does make a difference, and attracts adults that may not give a flying leap about the adventure.

 

My observation concerns the number of adults I see a) not working at troop level and b) wearing uniforms festoooned with doodads (and just not knots). Is there a connection? I think so. National rewards well those who don't go outdoors and don't work with youth.

 

The TC listing you present is interesting. First, many of those duties were filled by non-uniformed volunteers back in the day, if they were filled at all. And I truly believe that if there is a non-outdoor minded person in the training, or any of those positions, they dwill influence the flavor of the program, and the youth and adults recruited.

 

Should they all go on the troop campout? No. But how cool would it be if they were able, willing, and properly trained to fill in as needed?

 

District and council staffs--as Beavah astutely said, sometimes this is where the old timers go to serve. I have no problem with that--these folks have invested years in scouting and are a huge resource to the rest of us. But they are few in number. And getting fewer each year.

 

Focus makes a difference. Even if one isn't camping every weekend, the movement reflects the spirit of those that lead it, from national to troop. And if I had to summarize today's spirit, I'd call it stagnant, and sedentary.

 

 

 

[Eagle92]

'Rat,

 

No problem. I must admit most of the doo dads I am seeing are not uniform items, and I understand completely, i.e. mentor pins, parent pins, large furry necklaces from pack activity, etc.

 

After updating my Sea Scout uniform, I'm thinking my other uniforms have too much stuff on them, and all of the patches are properly worn. I may not some of the stuff I have on my next new shirt, but I will keep my knots.

[BrentAllen]

I guess I am missing something. The only member of our committee who wears a uniform is our CC, and he camps as much as I do. He's been on our Northern Tier and Sea Base trips. None of that has anything to do with his job as CC. He could never go camping, and still be a great CC.

 

"National rewards well those who don't go outdoors and don't work with youth."

 

How? Exactly. What is their reward? Examples?

 

 

[desertrat77]

Scoutfish, the uniform isn't the problem. But it sure can be a symptom if the focus is on the next doodad and not the welfare of unit level scouting.

 

Brent, let me broaden my word from "reward" to "encourage" which could include rewards.

 

It's possible to spend lots of time doing things, and attending meetings, and training, and chasing knots and awards, with folks at district and council level. Easy to get caught up in the administration and intrigues of those levels. Unit level scouting? Oh that, yes. Often a huge divide between unit level and above.

[BrentAllen]

Well, I'm still missing something. Are we talking about the DAM or Silver Beaver? Is that what this is all about? I can't think of any "reward" or perk or anything that national or council can offer. What am I missing?

[desertrat77]

Brent, I think the words I'll summon are encouragement (to serve in positions that translate only remotely to tangible service to unit level scouting) and disconnect (between district/council and units, between indoor and outdoor focus).

 

Even at unit level, like minded adults will recruit same. Adventure minded will recruit people who like outdoors, and indoors folks will recruit indoors folks.

 

Silver beaver and DAM? Fine awards.