Knots, to wear or not to wear?

[ScoutMythBuster]

A uniform is a uniform. There are dos and don'ts. When I was in the service if you did not wear all of your ribbons and your dress or service uniforms you were considered out of uniform. My question is: "if you have earned a knot should it be on your uniform?" I have recieved different answers but no explanation. So what are your opinions my fellow scouters?

[Beavah]

Yah, you can probably find a half dozen threads on the topic, eh? But hey, this one is more fun than talkin' about health care. Or gettin' a root canal.

 

In da real American military you most definitely do not need to wear all of your ribbons on either your dress or service uniform under ordinary conditions. I don't remember that ever bein' the case in the past, either, but then even I haven't been around forever .

 

For a youth program like da BSA, the uniform is a tool to achieve some things with the youth, so I think yeh have to think about it that way. For da kids and community and CO that yeh have, what's the best way to use the adult uniform as a tool to help kids learn and grow?

 

Some folks are of the "wear all the bling" camp. Show da kids that you're committed, show the kids what they can some day earn if they stay with scouting, show the kids that it's OK for them to pursue awards for their uniform too.

 

Some folks, and the historical and current BSA materials, are in da "understated" camp. They feel wearin' too much adult bling looks tacky, is reminiscent of a banana republic general, is more about da adult wanting to be recognized than really being about the kids. Knot-free uniforms for Wood Badge are also part of this tradition, eh?

 

Me personally, I'm more in da latter camp. I don't tend to wear knots at all. When I do, I limit 'em to those relevant to da position I'm serving in, eh? No cub leader knots if I've got a Venturing Advisor patch on, or vice versa. As a council scouter, only knots relevant to that position. There was a time where I had a mess of 'em on a backing that I could pin on when visiting a unit that was into full formal wear (on da "when in Rome" theory), but that just became too tiresome. And though I merit at least one of 'em, I refuse to wear da "buy yourself a knot" knots.

 

Offhandedly, I reckon that da main reason for that is that my personal experience has been that the more beknotted a fellow the less effective he is as a scouter. Just my observation over da years. The beknotted folks tend to be more into da trappings of scouting than actually being good at working with kids.

 

And if yeh take a step back and look at it from da point of view of a youth or parent who didn't grow up in scouting, yeh have to recognize that it looks perfectly ridiculous, like Halloween Saddam Hussein costumes. Grown men playin' at being kids or military wanabe's.

 

Beavah

 

[sailingpj]

As an addition to the original question, are knots allowed on youth Sea Scout uniforms? I have not seen anything in my manual or in the online insignia guide that talks about it. I have been wondering about this since I saw youth sea scouts wearing knots at Jambo, and I was presented a SCUBA knot recently.

 

From the insignia guide:

 

"Wearing medals and embroidered knots

 

Only five medals may be worn at a time pinned in a single row immediately above the seam of the left pocket. Knots are worn above the left pocket in rows of three. The order of wearing of medals and knots is at the discretion of the wearer. It is suggested that the medal or knot deemed most important by the wearer be worn on his or her own right. Embroidered knots are representative of pin-on medals or around-the-neck awards and are designed for the convenience of the wearer. In the case of the District Award of Merit and Professional Training Award, the knot is the only wearable insignia. The knots are listed here in alphabetical order."

 

http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/Media/InsigniaGuide/10K.aspx

(This message has been edited by sailingpj)

[ScoutBox]

AS for the military uniform. It is correct that if you don't wear all of your awards, ribbons, medals, and badges on your Class "A" uniform, then you are considered "Out of Uniform". Only exception I usually followed was that I didn't have but a few BDUs that I would wear only a few things on. Due to I knew what I did, and didn't need to show off. Like CIB, Master Parachutist Wings, Ranger Tab, Pathfinder, Air Assault blah, blah, blah.. I did wear Airborne wings while I was on Jump status, because it was a requirement. But field uniforms I almost never worn all the extras. Just Current Unit Patch, Name Tag, US Army Tag, and rank. It cost around 100. bucks to buy the uniform, and have everything sewn onto it. so I didn't bother.

 

Now for scouting I find that what little I have I wear on my uniform. I only have a Language "French", and a Trained patch for the moment, and on a couple of shirts I have my WB Critter on them. I haven't been beaded yet, and I don't have any nots to wear. But if I ever do earn any then I'll wear them. Now I've seen some people with only half of their Knots and they have a full chest. Something too see. Does remind me of some General. Are these needed to be worn. Maybe for the person wearing them. But not for me. I say wear what you want too. Wear them all if all are a few, and some if you have too many. It's up to hope you want to be perceived by others. Sure others will either look at you like your some kind of Super Scout, or as a Scout General. Some badges I find are more important then others. Example if you were a Scout as a Boy, and earned Eagle, Arrow of Light, and like one of your ASMs the Honor Medal. These should be worn just to show the boys that you are and were a Scout and have achieved what they may be seeking to earn. But like Beavah added, Knots that were paid for . This I don't understand. WHo came up with that grand idea? I know that Craig Murry, who I found to be a very nice guy, and has a long experience with Scouting, has earned about everything one could earn as a Scout and Adult. But he shows it off a bit I find. Just have a look at his web site. Not saying he haven't done a great job Scouting, but showing it off like that. of dedicating a Web Site to just yourself like that???

 

Just do what feels right too you. Wear what you feel like wearing. and I'm sure you'll do all right. I find Scouting a bit like the Army sometimes. People wearing the uniform to show off. Well, one thing i and many of my buddies used to notice in the Army, and I'm sure that boys and adults notice it too in Scouting. They look at the person in the uniform, how the uniform looks on him or hear, and if that person really is out for Scouting or the Army. and not ones self. It's very obvious I the end.. Like wearing the Smoky the Bear hat in Scouting.. Uncomfortable hat, and makes the wearer look like a Drill Sgt. or a dunce..

[VigilEagle04]

Pretty much whatever you feel comfortable wearing. I tend to take the same approach Beavah stated, what's relevant. Two knots will always be on my uniform though, AoL and Eagle. Things like this though, I have the Scouter's Key for the District Committee, but not for any troop level position. On my troop level uniform, that knot doesn't exist (though my troop uniform has my AoL, Eagle, Youth Religious Emblem, and James E. West knots). Apart from the four on my troop level uniform, which may appear on all uniforms down the road, there are a couple others that may appear on all of them. In my opinion, awards like District Award of Merit and Silver Beaver are worthy of being permanent fixtures. Your training awards though? Not so much.

 

Just my way of thinking.

[Eagle92]

I admit I have a bunch of stuff on most of my uniforms; 2 rows of knots, jambo patch, temp insignia, OA insignia etc, etc. And prior to becoming a CS leader, I had no problem with it because it was what I earned, was worn in the proper location, and I came from a troop that wanted you to wear what you earned. the theory was that you wore what you earned to A) to show your accomplishments and B) motiviate the younger scouts. It was pretty effective too.

 

But when I went into CS, I am seeing all kinds of stuff being worn, and most of it improperly on both Cubs and Leaders. Mentor pins, advancment towards ranks devices, patches in wrong places, patches that don't fit on pockets, multiple temp insignia, ad nasueum. Some leaders don't know any better as they are new, but others do know better and don't care. And that expereince has made me reconsider my old troop's approach.

 

I recently updated my old Sea Scout uniform. Ok I actually got new items because when I removed insignia no longer allowed on my old shirt, you could tell a patch use to be worn there. The Sea Scout uniform utilizes teh KISS approach with minimal insignia. While I'm a traditionalist and am not happy with the removal of some uniform items, the "bugs" on the Dixie Cups and unit numbers really got to me,overall I am pleased with its appearance. No temp insignia, no unit numbers, no jambo patches EXCEPT at jambo, etc.

 

As for the Smokey Bears, don't be messing with my Smokey Bear

[JerseyScout]

Wear what you want to wear. My one uniform has exactly one knot - my youth religious award. I have other knots that I've earned (chief among them Eagle), so why do I wear just one? Its the only one I wore as a youth member, so I never bothered to put any others on. Heck, as Scoutmaster, I'm still wearing the same uniform shirt I wore when I became a Weblos I twenty years ago! I did put the Scoutmaster patch on though, I figured that one was important.

 

Fellow came to the last roundtable to pitch religious awards. The youth information about religious awards was useful, and I've already passed it on to several of my Scouts who were interested in earning said awards. Then he took up close to ten minutes going on and on and on about how adults can earn religious knots in certain religions by taking a religious class (for other religions, you need to do some service to the institution through Scouting to earn one). Now I'm a religious fellow and a church goer, but I found the whole premise of adults earning Scout religious awards to be ridiculous. YOU ARE AN ADULT! If you want to be dedicated to your religious institution, awesome! If you want to bring that dedication to Scouts and bring your troop a religious side, awesome! But why in the world would you need to take a class and earn a knot for it?

[Jeffrey H]

I concur with the others. Wearing your awards (knots) is optional. I have a couple of knots on my uniform that are very meaningful to me and I wear them out of appreciation. On the other hand, I have another uniform shirt with nothing on it but the basic insignia that I use in Cub Scouts as Den Leader.

 

Honestly, I have "decorated" shirt that looks like a billboard and it's really over-done and little ridiculous and I'm thinking of removing some of the patches to tone it down.

 

Like most adult leaders, I'm in Scouting for the boys.

[VigilEagle04]

Jeff,

 

I think it's fun to keep a shirt around that has everything on it. I won't deny that it's a bit egotistical, but every once in a while it's a fine thing. I keep a long sleeve shirt with everything on it, and yeah, it looks excessive, and I'm sure it will get to be even more so over the years. I only break it out for special events, district/council dinners and the like.

[ScoutBox]

Vigil I see this often at adult stuff while in Scouting. That's the most often I see complete knots, patches etc.. being worn by friends who've been scouting for many, many years.. but when I see them at camp including the TAC Ex. he only wears a basic shirt. no knots etc.. in fact the only time I've seen him wearing his WB beads were at WB. Like you said ther is a place for all of that. But all the time.. it's up to the person..

 

I've got 5 shirts. I wear all I have on all 5 shirts. but it's not much to begin with.. no knots..

[emb021]

"As an addition to the original question, are knots allowed on youth Sea Scout uniforms? I have not seen anything in my manual or in the online insignia guide that talks about it. I have been wondering about this since I saw youth sea scouts wearing knots at Jambo, and I was presented a SCUBA knot recently."

 

yes, knots are allowed on the youth Sea Scout uniform. considering we had the immediate past National Boatswain on our booth staff, and his uniform had knots, that's a good indication its ok.

 

However, note that unofficial knots, like that SCUBA knots, are frowned upon.

 

 

[Eagle92]

Sail,

On page 113 of the, now old, Sea Scout manual it says the following

 

...if suspended medals or knots are worn, the SEAL insignia is owrn above the suspended medals or knots...

 

and page 114 tells you which youth knots are acceptable on adult uniforms: Quartermaster, Eagle Scout, Venturing Silver, old Air Scout Ace, Honor Medal, Heroism Award, Medal of Merit, Hornaday, and religious.

 

I personally think they forgot a few knots, specifically Arrow of Light, Exploring Ranger, Exploring Silver, and Young American, to name a few.

 

hope it helps and here's a link tothe now old manual online

http://venturingmag.org/documents/vba/Handbooks/SeaScoutManual/Index.htm

 

 

 

 

[VigilEagle04]

ScoutBox,

 

I definitely get where he is coming from. I will say, though, I could never go knotless. My three youth knots will always have their place. I understand why some people like to go knotless, but for me, I just feel like having those three on there say something to the Scouts and parents. I've been there, I stuck it out and made it, and so can you.

[Eagle92]

Vig,

I hear ya. Yep I wear 6 knots, and to behonest I am an anal retentive uniform nazi who actually takes off my knots and resews them so that my Eagle, AOL, and religious knots are always the first three. Everything else will come after those three for me.

[nugent725]

Figured I'd put in my $.02...

 

I say that if you earned them...wear them. However, it has to be done in good taste. I agree with ScoutBox said, you can tell when someone is wearing their uniform to the fullest out of pride...and when their doing it to show off. As long as your reasons for wearing what you wear don't put you in the latter category, I say go for it.

As for myself, I only currently have my Eagle, and will admit to being guilty that I'm "working on" my Scouter's Training Award (but the logic behind wearing that one is to show the youth and parents that the adult leadership is properly trained/qualified). However, I do agree with some of the other folks on here that certain things should apply to certain programs...it looks goofy wearing Cub training knots in Venturing. However, if you earned something on the district/council level (training or any of the Silver animals), I say wear it on any program shirt. Sometimes less is more, sometimes more is more...as long as you do it tactfully and don't do it so you can brag, show off, or create a website about it then you're fine.

 

YIS,

 

Ryan