Military uniform items with scouting?

[afscout]

I was talking to a friend about scouting and he mentioned that there was a BSA ban on wearing military uniform items (BDU pants, woodland patteren Gortex jackets, etc.) while at scouting activities. Is that true? Since the Air Force is phasing out the old woodland pattern BDUs, they have been my go to pants and coat for hiking/camping. Can anyone shed some light on this subject?

[denglerj27]

Hi afscout!

 

I've always heard this in the past but never actually seen it enforced. I've always viewed it as you wear what you are able to. According to: http://www.mninter.net/~blkeagle/camo.htm it isn't allowed and there is a quote on the page from: http://www.scribd.com/doc/8919606/Rules-and-Regulations-of-the-Boy-Scouts-of-America that is listed that the wear of uniforms that "imitate" uniforms of military units is strictly prohibited. Like I said I've never actually seen this enforced or been encouraged to wear anything else while at camp outs. I guess it all comes down to a judgment call.

[BartHumphries]

I heard that the ban on military clothing was because, with our tan/olive stuff, we already sort of look like a paramilitary group and what with our camping and hiking (and two shooting merit badges) we don't want to be lumped in with the "crazy" paramilitary groups (like the people at Waco). I thought I heard somewhere that marching in formation is forbidden -- as we have no drill corps. I see practically every troop march in unison at scout camp, though, so I don't know how true that last part is.

 

I know someone who knew someone who saw some adult Scouter at some scout camp who got kicked out of the BSA because he wanted to wear military pants with his uniform shirt at the camp. The executive who happened to be there came back with the sheriff to escort the guy away. Urban legend? It could be true, I read about it on the internet, after all.

[shortridge]

Your friend is confused. You can wear whatever you want while camping and on outdoor adventures. There is no ban on camouflage (either military-style or hunting) or surplus military clothing or outerwear.

 

Ask your friend to show you where this "BSA ban" is. He won't be able to find it.

 

What the BSA frowns upon is adding military-style elements to the uniform, such as helmets, gloves, swords and guns. From the Insignia Guide:

 

Drum and Bugle Corps Uniforms

 

Boy Scouts or Venturers who are members of bands, drill teams, or drum and bugle corps affiliated with a unit or a local council must wear the official uniform for their registration status.

 

The wearing of special helmets, scarves, gloves, unofficial leggings, and the carrying of ceremonial guns or swords by members of such organizations using the uniforms of the Boy Scouts of America is in violation of the Rules and Regulations of the Boy Scouts of America.

[Nike]

Our troops have always taken the safety angle against camo in that if a Scout is lost, he's already going to be difficult to see, let alone if he's in camo head to toe.

 

The desert boonie cap, fatigue sweater, or handy accessory was never disallowed, just anything that made the boys look like a member of a youth paramilitary outfit.

[msmjr2003]

For me, it's cheaper to supplement my camping gear with assorted garments/items I had in the USAF. But I also use discretion.

 

For example, I'd never wear BDU trousers in place of the BSA trousers, but I do hike in my boots. I also have been known to wear the desert-patterned GORE-TEX jacket, but only if rain is in the forecast. Otherwise, I don't see much need to supplement my stuff.

 

Places like REI are ridiculously expensive when I have the EXACT same thing (if not better) sitting at home. Just because Uncle Sugar gave it to me/made me buy it shouldn't necessarily exclude its use. Just don't run around at a Boy Scout meeting with a Kevlar helmet and a bazooka; that'd probably be a bad plan.

 

Good discretion is the order of the day...

[John-in-KC]

Uhhh....

 

http://uscode.house.gov/download/pls/10C45.txt

10 USC 772

 

-CITE-

10 USC Sec. 772 02/01/2010

 

-EXPCITE-

TITLE 10 - ARMED FORCES

Subtitle A - General Military Law

PART II - PERSONNEL

CHAPTER 45 - THE UNIFORM

 

-HEAD-

Sec. 772. When wearing by persons not on active duty authorized

 

-STATUTE-

(a) A member of the Army National Guard or the Air National Guard may wear the uniform prescribed for the Army National Guard or the Air National Guard, as the case may be.

(b) A member of the Naval Militia may wear the uniform prescribed for the Naval Militia.

© A retired officer of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps may bear the title and wear the uniform of his retired grade.

(d) A person who is discharged honorably or under honorable conditions from the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps may wear his uniform while going from the place of discharge to his home, within three months after his discharge.

(e) A person not on active duty who served honorably in time of war in the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps may bear the title, and, when authorized by regulations prescribed by the President, wear the uniform, of the highest grade held by him during that war.

(f) While portraying a member of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps, an actor in a theatrical or motion-picture production may wear the uniform of that armed force if the portrayal does not tend to discredit that armed force.

(g) An officer or resident of a veterans' home administered by the Department of Veterans Affairs may wear such uniform as the Secretary of the military department concerned may prescribe.

(h) While attending a course of military instruction conducted by the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps, a civilian may wear the uniform prescribed by that armed force if the wear of such uniform is specifically authorized under regulations prescribed by the Secretary of the military department concerned.

(i) Under such regulations as the Secretary of the Air Force may prescribe, a citizen of a foreign country who graduates from an Air Force school may wear the appropriate aviation badges of the Air Force.

(j) A person in any of the following categories may wear the uniform prescribed for that category:

(1) Members of the Boy Scouts of America.

(2) Members of any other organization designated by the Secretary of a military department.

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This is not the Congressional Charter. This is that part of the US Code governing the Armed Forces of the United States of America.

 

Boy Scouting is not authorized to wear the Armed Forces uniforms, in general (there are exceptions for disposal of certain Naval uniforms to Sea Scouting). This restriction applies to most citizens in most cases.

 

Stosh's former activity (I believe) of re-enacting is covered under 10 USC 772f.

 

Boy Scouting is authorized to wear its own distinctive uniforms.

 

Do I wear my former Gore-Tex parka? Yes. I paid $160 bucks at clothing sales for it. It's also now an obsolete uniform (BDUs are gone, we're in ACUs). Do I wear current field boots? NO. There's better stuff out there.

 

Do I wear a boonie hat? Actually, Propper Corporation makes the boonie hat in straight khaki. I wear that instead of BDU pattern.

 

HTH.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

[Shriscov]

So, if I wear the uniform with the OLD olive drab uniform pants (that somewhat resemble official pants) it'll be frowned upon?

[msmjr2003]

Ha.... Well, I had to think of something that would be overwhelmingly consistent across all cultures, all of these United States, etc.

[ScoutBox]

I know for a fact that TAC states in all it's leader's packets for camps etc. that there should be NO wearing of military items at the camps. But you always see it. either boots, packets, and even camo gortex jackets. I suggest to just go out and get yourselves some civi kit to use. The last thing that needed is anyone outside or inside of the BSA seeing this and thinking something else negative.

[BadenP]

John

 

What you quoted is to prevent civilians from wearing a complete uniform of any branch of the armed forces aka posing as a member of that service. It does not apply to camo pants or jackets or any surplus pieces which is not official, unless all the military insignia are attached, that the military farms out and can be readily bought at most outdoor or surplus stores. The military code applies ONLY to civilians wearing a COMPLETE OFFICIAL service uniform where they could be mistaken for or pose as military personnel.

[VigilEagle04]

When I was a Scout, I as also a JROTC cadet. We were a fortunate BN that got a good bit of gear, and I often wore my BDU pants on camping trips, and often took my M65 with me (and later my Gore-Tex once I got one). My ruck was often in use, and I'd wear my boots if the hiking wasn't going to be too rough or the weather not too cold (they weren't the best boots for sure). Now, I never took the BDU shirt along, it wasn't necessary, but the pants, especially older ones that had gotten ripped up or what have you (our BN was pretty active, and pretty rough on uniforms) were perfect for Scouting.

 

The fun part, was we still had some old fatigues in our supply room. No one wanted these things, and I gladly took them off the books when offered. I know they weren't official, but for kids who didn't have the official pants, couldn't afford them, these were great. At a distance they looked official. My troop as a whole had a habit of getting green BDU pants though. Our troop leadership just felt they were more durable, and more conducive to the Scouting lifestyle. They worked great, and many people in this area do that. You don't find many Scouts in full uniform around here unless they are involved in the leadership of the OA lodge or have been on camp staff. It just doesn't happen otherwise.

[Eagle92]

I've been known to wear and use GI surplus gear. Heck one troop I was with encouraged everyone to buy ALICE packs b/c A) we got them at cost and B) they had the snaps on the straps that could be used to secure the packs to the thwarts of a canoe. I also think the old BDUs/Combat utilities are excellent for doing conservation work and other heavy labor projects at camps. Also I know of several units that purchase surplus from the state for their units to use as these are SCOUTREACH units.

 

But I wouldn't encourage mixing BDU pants with BSA shirt. Outerwear like a anoraks, field jackets, ponchos, sure.

[John-in-KC]

Baden,

 

I'll compare DD214s, commissions, and retirement orders with you any day. Hit me in PM with your .mil email, and I'll send you my .mil email.

 

My view is held by more than a few other serving, retired, and veteran Scouters.

 

When I was a youth member, Dad could still fit his woolen winter field uniform trou ... but he didn't use them for Scouting. He did, when we did the John Muir Trail, get the current basic combat boot. He's worn those for many years. I had one of his fatigue hats ... the kind that had the wool flaps. Dad let me wear it in town, but not to Scouting.

 

Sorry, we agree to disagree.

[Stosh]

Okay, I'm confused on this:

 

"(j) A person in any of the following categories may wear the uniform prescribed for that category:

(1) Members of the Boy Scouts of America.

(2) Members of any other organization designated by the Secretary of a military department."

 

By US Code/Law, BSA members can wear US military uniforms and do so such as Sea Scouts (Navy Uniform) and the defunct Air Scouts (US Army Air Corps, at that time). It may wear US Army uniforms, but it can, if it wishes, have a uniform of it's own. Back when scouting started, the boys would wear the US Army Uniform and make it "BSA" by replacing the buttons with BSA buttons. Over the years the "tradition" changed with the exception of Sea Scouts which still wears, by congressional authority, the US Navy uniform with BSA buttons.

 

Venturing crews can wear a uniform of their choosing and it doesn't need to conform to the BSA standard Venturing dark green shirt/gray pants. If an aviation Venturing crew were to be formed, they could wear the USAF uniform the same as the Civil Air Patrol does today as a civilian-auxiliary of the USAF.

 

"What the BSA frowns upon is adding military-style elements to the uniform, such as helmets, gloves, swords and guns. From the Insignia Guide:

 

Drum and Bugle Corps Uniforms

 

Boy Scouts or Venturers who are members of bands, drill teams, or drum and bugle corps affiliated with a unit or a local council must wear the official uniform for their registration status.

 

The wearing of special helmets, scarves, gloves, unofficial leggings, and the carrying of ceremonial guns or swords by members of such organizations using the uniforms of the Boy Scouts of America is in violation of the Rules and Regulations of the Boy Scouts of America."

 

Someone ought to tell this to the Madison Scouts Drum and Bugle Corps!

 

Challenge Academy in our area is a Venturing Crew of "at risk" youth. This boot camp style of instruction takes problem youth and help them turn their lives around. They wear a US Army Class-B uniform with "Challenge Academy" rather than US Army on the shirt. The Challenge Academy program is run out of an active US Army Fort facility and none of the members of the Academy are enlisted in the US military.

 

My Venturing crew did not carry ceremonial guns or swords, they were real. Why would National approve such things in writing to our Crew and yet forbid it within the Insignia Guide?

 

The problem with BSA policy is that there are so many exceptions to the rules that the rules are often lost in the shuffle.

 

The rub comes in the fact that Congressional US Code allows for the BSA to wear US military uniforms, but BSA in some respects chooses not to.

 

Stosh