New Restricted Insignia offered on eBay

[skeptic]

Probably just my own outdated perception of honor and integrity, but I am really annoyed by how many items appear on eBay that are supposed to be restricted to specific participants or "earned". It is one thing to offer older items; but current ones seem to me to be out of line.

 

Currently, there are at least 3, likely others I have not seen, "Dealers" there that are listing Jamboree items, 2010 limited patches for rank and office, and OA items. The questions that come to mind are: How do they get them?; Are some scout stores simply selling them to whomever?; Are they actually involved in Scouting (having seller ratings in the thousands would hint at not likely)?; And, if they are involved in Scouting, does the concept of "Honor" and "Trustworthiness" have a more modern connotation than I understand as a "vintage scouter"?

 

Waiting for snide comments, but hoping for some sincere thoughts.

[Eagle92]

I have mixed emotions on this. One one hand I have used ebay to replace restricted items that I have earned, but have either lost, or the most likely case, destroyed at my mom's house during Katrina. I have also used ebay to get restricted items that I was not able to purchase at the time, i.e. WSJ jambo backpatch comes to mind, as well as duplicate items, BA22 patches and a few extra jambo patches again.

 

On the other hand, I don't like the idea b/c I don't want people wearing what they haven't earned.

[Beavah]

Yah, it's just awful to live in a free society, eh?

 

I think if yeh want to sell your patches, that's your right.

 

By and large, when a "dealer" gets a batch of these things, it's from a scouter who has passed on to his reward. Da family is selling his stuff. Maybe they need money, maybe they just hope that fellow scouters will appreciate it and eBay and Craigslist are da ways you make it available.

 

Nuthin' at all dishonorable in that, eh?

 

Beavah

 

[Twocubdad]

What, exactly, does restricted mean? Isn't the restriction placed on the Scout Shop? Can you reference some BSA document which prohibits me from selling Eagle, Philmont arrowhead and other rank and merit badges?

 

I think the ethics of wearing and perporting to have earned an award is separate from buying, selling and owning them. If someone wants to collect all the variations of Eagle awards or Silver critters, I don't see how it lessens the value of having earned one. I choose not to be offended.

[Frank17]

Restricted = cannot be sold by the scout shop to John Q Public who has no affiliation with scouting.

 

However, there is no restiction to selling items to scouts and scouters who have either earned that rank or have the correct paperwork. Case in point, when my son made Eagle, I purchased a full set of scout rank patches and MBs that he had earned to make a commemorative plaque for him. All I had to do was to take his sash & uniform in to show the scout shop what he had earned. There was no restriction on me about how I used them after I purchased them & I'm sure they would have sold me several sets if I requested them. After all, I bought 3 eagle medals for him (1 for uniform, one for the plaque, & one for framing with his certificate). The store did not even blink.

 

[Frank17]

By the way, having bought a lot of historic scout related memorabilia off ebay in the past, my bet is that most of the dealers are not selling to persons who are trying to claim a rank or honor they did not earn; most are probably collectors interested in patches or other items (a time honored scouting tradition). Having seen some historic patches going for $100s or even $1000s, most of the buyers would not put them on their uniform to wear. (However, bring to the next roundtable to show off, probably yes - )

[skeptic]

For me, what seems distasteful, is the appearance that "a few" are somehow obtaining items they should be using for personal use, and immediately turning around and offering them for sale, often at a very substantial profit. I understand both the historical and collection connections; but I am talking about the blatant abuse of the privilege of buying certain items meant for a limited use or audience. There is a huge difference between selling "old" material, and buying currently for sale material intended for a particular activity or period, then putting it up for sale.

 

I too have bought many things for my historical collection; and I have sold a few items as well. But none of them have been current, nor intended for use by a specialized upcoming event by the specific participants.

 

To me, as I have noted, it just seems dishonest. JMHO

[desertrat77]

What's the worse possible thing that could happen?

 

A person buys a restricted item and wears it, even though he/she did not earn it.

 

True, it's dishonorable, and goes against everything we stand for in scouting.

 

But what tangible benefit is an imposter going to extract from wearing ill-gotten beads or medals or whatever?

 

They may gain respect or status they don't deserve. Or they might even be the keynote speaker at an banquet, and score a free prime rib dinner.

 

I don't condone it, but I don't worry about it either. There are no monetary benefits, or special parking places, or anything other perk that comes with Silver Beaver, or Woodbadge, or Eagle Scout. Perhaps it might influence a future employer on a resume, or an acceptance letter on a college app...but I don't think these things are tipping points. It might help, but there must be other solid accomplishments to lend credibility...and if an imposter is going to mention an award he/she didn't earn, they'll probably add other bogus items as well.

 

It's not the insignia that determines a persons' character...the insignia only represents accomplishments that indicate what bearers' character might be.

 

Frauds are always unveiled eventually...they rarely compartmentalize, so their imposter status will exhibit itself eventually in other areas as well.

 

This happens quite frequently, insignia or not. We all have met guys who bragged about being an Eagle, but when you press them with some basic questions (What year did you earn it? What council?) the stammering begins and the conversation ends.

 

The vast majority of scouts and scouters are honorable. The frauds compose such a small percent, I'll bet, that we could just let fate/divine justice/karma find them out.

 

 

[shortridge]

I was in a scout shop a while back, and saw that the Eagle kits (patch and medal in a small box) were out in the open for anyone to pick up. It would have been very easy to distract the clerk and slip one into a pocket. Rather disturbing. I mentioned it to the manager, and they were moved behind the counter.

[Basementdweller]

I have ran into this exact problem and it is rampant thru scouting.

 

Ran into a gentleman who had a Philmont Arrowhead hanging on his pocket. I enjoyed my philmont experience so I asked how his trek was and what kind of itinerary he had. Well they hiked 120 miles in their week while carrying 150 pound packs.

 

We have all met the woodbadgers, well they have the woggle and the neckerchief, who don't remember their course number or Patrol name.

 

If there is a Patch or Position in Scouting Someone is lying about having done it.

 

I don't like them selling Jambo patches in advance of actual event. People are jerks.

[emb021]

"I don't like them selling Jambo patches in advance of actual event."

 

This is done because they expect people to put their jamboree patches on in advance of the event. Its also a way of telling participants from visitors. Been done that way from day one.

 

NOAC, they always put the patch on a loop, and you get it when you arrive, and can start wearing it (most OA events are the same).

 

This as compared with most Boy Scout events, where you get the patch at a souvenir at the end.

 

[Crew21_Adv]

Skeptic and Fellow Scouters,

 

Greetings!

 

 

I view eBay dealers as source. It's up to the Scout/Scouter to be honest. Although, I try to find some sarcastic humor in the larger eBay dealers.

 

I've discussed with a few fellow Scouters around the campfire. My theory, I bet a majority of them are employees for some of the usual BSA patch manufacturers. And while a patch company is contracted for 100-500 limited edition patches, maybe another 50-100 fall of off the loom or assembly line, and accidently fall into a cardboard box that is carried home.

 

While patch imperfections or misspells are supposed to be shredded and destroyed, some imperfections are probably in an eBay dealers living room.

 

I'd wager, they probably make more off of eBay, than they do working at the various patch companies contracted by councils and lodges.

 

It's a shame though, that when a Council or Lodge has contracted for only 100 limited edition patches, and there are 200-250 limited editions in patch collections or worse, on a uniform.

 

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

[Jeffrey H]

I agree with desertrat77. Wearing patches that are earned is part of an honor system. Scouts shops may do a good job to restrict items, but sometimes badges and knots get released by mistake. If a dishonest person wants to impress others by the badges and knots he is wearing and did not earn, he will be eventually be found out.

 

I've seen leaders wear the "Trained" patch when I knew full well they had not completed all requirements for their Boy Scout adult leader position. This happens when they go from Cub Scout Leader to Boy Scout Leader. They remove their former CS position patch, but they never take off their Trained patch. When I crossed over to Boy Scouts as an ASM, I had one of these adults ask when I was going to get "Trained" because I was not wearing the patch. I told him I was only "Trained" as Cub Scout Leader, but not yet as Boy Scout Leader as I was still waiting to take IOLS course. He looked at me funny and said, "Oh, you have to do that?"

[John-in-KC]

Please show me where, beyond a youth/adult OA membership:

 

Jamboree lodge flaps/CSPs are earned.

NOAC lodge flaps are earned.

 

I wear a 2005 Jambo lodge flap on one of my shirts. I didn't attend. Why? The artwork is incredible, and the artwork on our current standard lodge flap looks like a nine year old did it.

 

I wear a 2008 NOAC lodge flap on a different shirt. I didn't attend. Why? The design is simple and elegant, whilst our current lodge flap looks horrid.

 

They're for sale, on reduction, at one of our Council Reservation trading posts. To me, it's blindingly obvious to the casual observer that someone wants to get some money out of them. Otherwise, they'll either be given away or rot in storage. Sounds like being Thrifty to me.

[emb021]

There is a difference between owning a patch for an event your didn't attend or for an award you didn't earn, and wearing it.

 

I don't have a problem with the first. I do have a problem with the second.

 

I won't wear an award I didn't earn.

 

I won't wear a patch for an event I didn't attend. I would include JSPs and Jambo/NOAC flaps in that category.

 

I also wouldn't wear a CSP for a council I am not a part of, just because I like the design better (as one scout apparently did).

 

As a collector/memorabilist, I try to buy or trade for patches for events I am not able to attend, becaue I want all the patches for a particular lodge or council or event. I will buy extras to trade with others, as do other collectors. We don't expect people to wear them.