When is too much emphasis placed on uniforms?

[evmori]

Bet y'all know what I am going to say!

 

Until the BSA requires the uniform to be a member, requiring Scouts to wear one is verboten!

 

Now, in Stosh's case, it seems the gold nuggets were given out because Scouts were in uniform. The way I read it is the nuggets were given out because these Scouts went over and above what was required. Nothing wrong with rewarding that!

[OldGreyEagle]

You, know, this whole thing about comparing Boy Scout Uniforms to athletic teams uniforms is wrong.

 

If we are going to compare ourselves to Athletic teams in uniforming then we may as well take on the full model, and not go half-way. At Camporees, Klondikes, etc where there is patrol competition, only the "starting scouts" will be allowed to participate. The scrubs or substitutes can stand around, on the sidelines as it were and wait to see if they are needed. We will have adults determine who is the best firestarter, the best lasher, the best everything. We will have the adults determine the troops strategy as the overall goal of any athletic team is to win. We will have the adults determine who the captain is of the unit.

 

Yeah, just like sports, thats what I want scouts to be

[GKlose]

Well, as far as sports uniforming goes -- I stress with my sons that "protection" is as much part of their uniform, although they dislike it. That is, until they saw a 17-something yr-old umpire last year jump up and take an errant pitch full on in the "package", but he was unprotected. As he lay on the ground "recomposing" himself for several minutes, I'll bet he was giving a lot of thought to the idea of full uniforming for his role. Tough lesson to learn the hard way.

 

As far as scout uniforming goes, I'm disappointed in the mixed message that our scouts get. I even heard a council trainer say, at New Leader Essentials, about The Uniform method:

"well, you have the shirt -- from there, it is a troop choice."

 

In our own troop, the adult leaders aren't fully uniformed (except for me). Since they aren't, neither are Scouts. My own sons, who have full uniforms, resist because none of the other Scouts in the troop wear a full uniform.

 

Now as far as a Scouter handing out Klondike nuggets for uniforming -- for me, I think it depends on how it is handled. If it is strictly for Scout Spirit, but then Scout Spirit is equated only to full uniform (in our neck of the woods, that would be another mixed message: they are told to come to the Klondike without cotton, because "cotton kills" -- and while there is a non-cotton choice now, I see very few Scouts that have moved out of the uniform shirt they purchased after transitioning from Cub Scouts a few years back -- in fact, one Scout grew so big so fast that he was almost popping buttons, but then he came back after a summer hiatus, and he slimmed down considerably -- so his 5-yr-old shirt fits better than ever) that seems like a problem to me.

 

I would equate this to one class I had in college, a programming class. The TA grading our assignments would award specific points for specific things, but he wouldn't tell us what those were ahead of time. It was a guessing game. I asked him about it, and he said "you know, extra stuff." What kind of extra stuff will you be looking for on this next assignment? "You know, extra stuff." But if you didn't have specifically what he was looking for, you didn't get the points.

 

On the other hand, I think no matter what you do, there are always going to be Scouters that go ballistic.

 

Guy

[Mr. Boyce]

I think the adults should be in full uniform.

 

Boys should at least wear a shirt.

 

A uniform closet or uniform exchange is a good way to go.

[Buffalo Skipper]

Stosh, why did you start such a divisive discussion? You know better than that. ;-)

 

I would like to say this:

We are a fully uniformed troop. The troop maintains a uniform closet. Scouts are expected to wear a full uniform at every troop meeting, SM conference, BOR, traveling to and from every campout, at flag ceremonies, summer camp, etc. All troop members have a full uniform. Adults typically wear a full uniform the entire time during campouts. From when we leave the parking lot on Friday afternoon until we return Sunday afternoon. Not sure what they sleep in, but from when they leave the tent in the morning until they return to their tents in the evening, they are in uniform. All activities with the exception of water activities. Most of the scouts wear their scout pants most of the campout.

 

As a lad in the 70's, I was a member of a troop. There was never any discussion about not wearing the uniform. It was worn at all scout events with the troop neckerchief. We also wore the red beret and socks with garters.

 

Stop finding excuses not to wear the uniform. Stop trying to weasal out of it and just put on the uniform. The only uniform is the full uniform. Any thing less is not a uniform, it is a polyform.

 

As adults, lead by example. Wear the uniform every chance you can in front of the scouts. Remove the excuse it can't tolerate outdoor activities and still function as a dress uniform. Show that it functions in both arenas.

 

Oh, wait, resqman already said that. Well I can't put it any better, and that applies to us perfectly. I would also add that though I welcome anyone to pick up pants from the uniform locker (and return them when they outgrow them) we would purchase a pair for a scout who cannot afford them, but we haven't yet had to. Likewise, if a parent/scout finds a good pair of non-bsa brand pants which is a good color match, that is fine with us. I recently found at a local outdoors/sports store a pair of long Columbias which were an exact color match, quick dry and cut just like a good pair of scout pants. They were on clearance for $14, so I referred every leader I saw for the next 2 weeks to where they were in the store. I know of 4 people who bought them. No one can tell they are not BSA issue. I also own a pair of switchbacks, 2 long pants (BSA), and 2 pair of BSA shorts. I am not seen at functions out of uniform, except on service projects, hiking or boating. Our leaders always set the example, and our scouts are now almost always in a complete uniform.

[asichacker]

Interesting topic on uniforms....

 

When I brought up the topic of Scouts to my son many years ago, he decided he wasn't interested solely on the basis that he didn't want to wear the uniform. My SS is a uniform fanatic, so I guess Scouting works for him on that level.

 

Makes you wonder how many more kids would be in scouting if it weren't for the uniform...

[Beavah]

Yah, I have a different take on this, eh?

 

I like the lads to be in uniform. I really hate da bluejeans thing.

 

But not on a klondike. Around here if some tom-fool of a uniform cop was insisting all the lads be in full uniform in the snow we'd be quietly replacing him with someone who knew better.

 

Beyond that, da one spot where I think yeh have to tone it down is when you're dealing with other troops, eh? Different units go about da Methods differently. If an adult leader from another unit is tellin' you to back off his kids, you back off. Just common courtesy to a fellow adult leader. You've got no more business telling him how to run his unit than he does tellin' you how to run yours.

 

Some units do the spic-and-span pressed uniform thing. Some units do the 2-outings-a-month, maximum outdoor adventure thing. Some units do the full-out patrol method independent camping and hiking without adults thing.

 

It's not OK for a maximum outdoor adventure leader to start penalizing another unit's kids because they don't do 8 long weekend rock climbing trips a year. It's not OK for a patrol method fellow to penalize the NSP of another troop because an adult came along to the Klondike station with 'em. And it's not OK for a spic-and-span uniform leader to get all hot and bothered about how some other unit isn't doing scouting right because their boys aren't in full uniform.

 

When you're servin' as a volunteer at a district or council event, you're there to support the unit in running their scouting program, eh? It's a service job. You're not there to criticize. So if yeh get a load of "feedback", even if it's not offered in the most courteous way, yeh step back and apologize. The fellow was a bit tightly wound, but probably he was that way because this had happened once too many times to his kids, and we're all protective of our own scouts.

 

Beavah

 

[Stosh]

Thanks for the feedback. Just a further point of clarification, the Scout Spirit issue was the focus on the "gold nuggets", it played absolutely no part in the judging of the competition.

 

It was a Klondike and the scouts were pretty much bundled up with the ski pants, jackets, etc. and when I asked the question it was two-fold in nature. 1) were the scouts in full uniform, and 2) was the scout honest in their answer. One boy did ask me if my ASM and myself were in full uniform, in which we answered yes and showed the boys that underneath all the heavy coats it was possible to still have on a full uniform.

 

Yes, in cold weather cotton kills, but was also conveyed to the boys that polypropylene/wool underwear was underneath the uniform and layered heavy clothing on over.

 

One patrol that showed up in uniform (albeit not full) did receive more nuggets than those that didn't. Boys that were polite got nuggets. A boy from the troop at the next table who saw me eating only the Klondike soup (which was what I had planned on doing for lunch), came over and offered me some of their troop's sandwiches to go with it. One adult was doing too much hovering over their patrol's competition activity and the boy courteously told him that, "We have it covered, we're doing fine." Obviously , this PL got an extra nugget or two.

 

Each station ran about a half hour and one troop decided they didn't need to show up on time, horsed around and missed out on the station. They didn't get a score, they didn't get a nugget or two, and instead got a strong suggestion that next time they get their act together and come prepared and on time. Much to my chagrin it was MY troop that pulled that stunt.

 

By the way, a NSP that showed up with just two members of their patrol, but they did show up, did the competition, worked together, scored poorly, only one was in his scout shirt (half uniform), had adults hovering over them, didn't have a patrol flag, mumbled through the "yell", still walked away with nuggets. They were supposed to be "in with another patrol", but chose to go it alone. For me, they ranked right up there with the best patrols of the day, and that fact of patrol loyalty was conveyed to them.

 

No one is "penalized" for doing it wrong, but many are rewarded for doing it right.

 

My "nazi, uniform police" ASM came to me the week before his EBOR and asked me if the belt with the BSA brass buckle was appropriate for his EBOR the next day. I said I didn't know because I wasn't going to be on his EBOR panel. I pulled my belt off and said if he was worried about it he could borrow mine. He wore mine and returned it at the next troop meeting with a verbal thank you. He also went out and purchased a complete new uniform so it would be exactly right for the EBOR. That would make it his third uniform. It had the ASM position on the sleeve and the AOL knot with no rank. He had turned 18 between the time he turned in the paperwork and when his EBOR was held. Obviously he holds himself to the standards he promotes.

 

Stosh(This message has been edited by jblake47)

[Oak Tree]

Stosh,

 

I think that's exactly the right way to go. Reward, encourage, notice when the Scouts wear the uniform. Give them little rewards. Nothing wrong with any of that, as far as I can see. Now, I personally probably wouldn't do it on the Klondike Derby - but it might depend on what expectations were communicated to the Scouts.

 

As for when you can tell if you're going too far, I'd say that if you start to turn boys off because of an over-emphasis on the uniform, you'd be going too far. That point is very different for different boys and for different troops, though.

[Scoutfish]

Brent,

 

 

 

I agree. I never said we changed anything. I said we don't require pants. And then Iexplained that I myself will praise a boy in full uniform, but will not criticize one who is not.

 

BSA does not require unifroms. BSA would love for everybody to have one and wear it correctly. But do not require oit for participation.

 

Now, I will also add that "I" feel like that any child who stays in the program and is going camping, hiking and what not esach month... ought to be able to have a full uniform.

 

I would think that if you can afford to buy tents, backpacks, knives, sleeping bags and all the necesarry equipment as well as all the extra non essential equipment... you can afford a uniform.

 

Personally, I wear my unifrom with pride, and UI try to wear it as best as I can. If I have the sligfhtest doubt ( such as temo badge) I will ask in order to wear it correctly.

 

But as I also read from a wiser member in here... common sense should always prevail over BSA policy such as wearing a uniform ( at Klondike) when wearing warmer clothes is the rule of safety.

 

 

 

[desertrat77]

I'm all for full uniforming, but I don't buy the sports team uniform comparison...most sports uniforms are functional and can actually withstand the stress of what they are they are designed for...the BSA lost claim to that standard long ago when they went low quality/indoor program focus/high cost....

 

The day the BSA fields a rugged uniform that is designed for camporees, and is something a scout would be proud to wear in public, that's when we'll achieve voluntary full uniforming...till then, parents and scouters will keep sending their kids to camporees in blue jeans and other clothes that can take the abuse of dirt, soot, a spilt mess kit, and running thru the woods....

 

Back indoors, full uniforming is attainable and desirable. Why? That's what our uniform is designed for...sitting in meetings, listening to powerpoint briefings, enjoying potluck dinners....

 

That said, the nugget giver has the right to hand out nuggets to whomever he wishes...if folks get upset, so be it...as long as the scouts can compete in the derby, that's the main thing.

[resqman]

"only one was in his scout shirt (half uniform)"

 

Arrrgh. There is no such thing as Half Uniform. There is only UNIform. Anything else is not a uniform. Stop making excuses and celebrating improper uniforming. It is an All or Nothing proposition.

 

"The day the BSA fields a rugged uniform that is designed for camporees, and is something a scout would be proud to wear in public, that's when we'll achieve voluntary full uniforming...till then, parents and scouters will keep sending their kids to camporees in blue jeans and other clothes that can take the abuse of dirt, soot, a spilt mess kit, and running thru the woods...."

 

The current uniform works. My son is always the one knee deep in muck, spilling food, running thru stuff, etc. He brings it home, throws it in the washing machine with some soap and he is ready to go to the next troop meeting. I have had the same pair of pants for 6 years. 3 years of Cub Scouts and 3 years of Boy Scouts. Wear them on campouts, hiking, rock climbing, and COH. No problems. Son has no problems. The shirt is beginning to be a bit grimmy after 3 years of constant use but it is also getting a bit tight and ready for the next size. Anything you wear 6 times a month for 3 years is going to be a bit grimmy and showing wear around the edges. None of the street clothes we bought 3 years ago are still in his closet. Stop making excuses. The uniform performs as well or better in the field than blue jeans.

 

[BulldogBlitz]

I've seen more than my fair share of scouts who don't actually own uniform pants - mostly wear their scout shirt over some other shirt... unbuttoned, untucked... and he's an eagle scout. I'm sure someone will quickly jump to his defense that he's too poor... problem is, he isn't. His family isn't too poor either. He'll gladly run out and buy a $100 pair of blue jeans with strategic rips in them and wear them proudly - making sure everyone sees his new Iphone app too. He's explained a number of times that the uniform just isn't "cool" and those green pants are the worst.

 

From the top down in that troop, you'll find any variety of the same excuses of not getting or wearing a uniform. You'll also find a bunch of guys who aren't really going to "help other people at all times". It is a quick and easy defense to say "can't afford", but that excuse isn't really needed anymore -- now is it?

[acco40]

I think it is absolutely ridiculous to set expectations for members of a voluntary organization to meet that organizations expectations!

 

While just the other day, my district commissioner actually stated that he expected me, as a unit commissioner to visit the units I "serve." I just don't understand the nerve of some folks.

[Beavah]

Yah, goin' back to da original question...

 

I think too much emphasis is being placed on uniforms when the adults start arguin' about uniforms.

 

That's the point when it ceases to be a fun kids' game, eh?

 

B