When is too much emphasis placed on uniforms?

[Stosh]

Yesterday I was at our district Klondike and along with the competitions, they were handing out gold nuggets for scout spirit whenever we saw the boys doing something appropriate to scouting. Whenever a patrol would come for the competition I was judging, I'd ask the boys how many were in full uniform. One of the leaders when ballistic and went on an about 5 minute tirade about "bullying the boys". No all the boys can "afford" to have the pants, Scouting is not a para-military organization, etc. was the general gist of things. My ASM who was judging with me was singled out because he had "bullied" the OA boys about showing up at our troop OA presentation/vote wearing blue jeans and school sweatshirt instead of scout uniform with sash or OA regalia. He would also "bully" the boys by offering suggestions that E-Bay has pants for as little as $5-10 if you are patient with the bidding. Our SE has more than once thanked the boy for bringing up the subject and promoting scout uniforming in the council.

 

Where does one draw the line with expecting a "full" uniform for scout activities? The leaders don't wear the full uniform, nor do they expect their boys to, and now in this situation were able are setting off on a tirade when there are boys that do.

 

I suggested to my ASM to stop by the council office and pick up a handful of inspection sheets and merely hand them out when confronted rather than trying to explain to them the importance of a complete uniform.

 

I know of no sport coach that would allow a person to participate in the game without full uniform. I know of no music teacher that would allow a person to participate in a concert without full uniform. I know of no drama instructor who would allow an actor on stage with a partial costume, and yet it is okay to show up for scouts half dressed? I've been thinking about this since the day at summer camp when our boys all showed up for opening flags one morning and were reminded that this was "no uniform" day at the camp. My boys walked off the field and went back to camp. They participated throughout the day in full uniform but did not participate in closing flags because the protocol for the day didn't set well with them and they unanimously voted to have flag closing in our campsite instead.

 

Your thoughts?

 

Stosh(This message has been edited by jblake47)

[Kahuna]

My personal view as a leader is full uniform or no uniform (and if you can't afford a uniform, we'll get something for you), but opinions vary. In any case, encouraging Scouts to wear full uniform is not bullying unless the leader is doing something other than what you describe.

[Twocubdad]

This is why we don't compete in camporees. More than likely, this guys was racked out of square because his scouts didn't get the stupid little gold nugget.

 

At our Klondike, the boys are permitted to compete in work clothes and I don't have a problem with that. But in the name of "Scout Spirit", patrols wear all sorts of stupid costumes matching the "theme" of their patrol. In our last Klondike one of my patrols decided that a true show of scout spirit was to wear their uniforms. Other than at the station run by our troop, no one made any comments at all about them being the only patrol in uniform that day. But the pirate patrol did well.

 

I'm in full agreement with you on the uniform issue. Certainly some troops hold higher standards than others, but the bozo berating your ASM was out of line. If being in full uniform fits your idea of scout spirit, it was perfectly acceptable to reward the scouts who met that standard.

 

I will offer my thanks to you and your ASM for what you are doing.

[EagleBeaver]

"Where does one draw the line with expecting a full uniform for scout activities?"

 

In my view, it is when the scout is denied something because he is not wearing the uniform. Since uniforms are not required, their wear is highly encouraged but not mandatory.

 

If a reward is given because of proper attire, that is not denying something. If a scout is denied a scoutmaster conference, board of review, ... because he has no uniform, that is over the line.

 

Regarding Klondikes and winter camping specifically, requesting scouts to wear uniforms can be unsafe since they are not appropriate attire for outdoor wear in sub-freezing temperature.

 

On a side, the best thing that ever happened for uniforming in our troop was the 1/2 price sale of zip-off pants. Virtually everyone got them, but now older scouts having grown a few inches have not purchased new pants for their last year or two of scouting. I'll second the eBay.com option for pants - I've gotten two pair there.

[resqman]

We are a fully uniformed troop. The troop maintains a uniform closet. Scouts are expected to wear a full uniform at every troop meeting, SM conference, BOR, traveling to and from every campout, at flag ceremonies, summer camp, etc. All troop members have a full uniform. Adults typically wear a full uniform the entire time during campouts. From when we leave the parking lot on Friday afternoon until we return Sunday afternoon. Not sure what they sleep in, but from when they leave the tent in the morning until they return to their tents in the evening, they are in uniform. All activities with the exception of water activities. Most of the scouts wear their scout pants most of the campout.

 

As a lad in the 70's, I was a member of a troop. There was never any discussion about not wearing the uniform. It was worn at all scout events with the troop neckerchief. We also wore the red beret and socks with garters.

 

Stop finding excuses not to wear the uniform. Stop trying to weasal out of it and just put on the uniform. The only uniform is the full uniform. Any thing less is not a uniform, it is a polyform.

 

As adults, lead by example. Wear the uniform every chance you can in front of the scouts. Remove the excuse it can't tolerate outdoor activities and still function as a dress uniform. Show that it functions in both arenas.

[Eamonn]

I hold to the idea that we are a uniformed organization.

But there are times when the uniform should be worn and times when maybe it's not the ideal thing to wear.

The person in charge of the activity should find a way of determining this. Be it from past practices, input from the youth or just because he is the guy in charge!

Once the decision has been made, the word needs to be put out so that everyone knows what to wear.

No one would expect Scouts to go swimming in full uniform, I wouldn't expect Scouts to wear full uniform for a Klondike Derby, but I wasn't running the event!

If the Scouts were not informed that there would be some type of recognition for being in full uniform and someone took it upon themselves to hand out awards for being in full uniform I can understand why some people were upset.

Eamonn

[Basementdweller]

Blake not knowing what region of the country your in it is hard to make a judgment.

 

Florida or south no excuse not to be in full uniform. Even financial. We have a uniform closet for young men of lesser means. Minnesota or colder climate uniform pants could be worn under coveralls or bibs.

 

Just curious is the full uniform only for courts of honor???????

 

When ever my son and I are at scout events we are both in full uniform. Den hikes, Troop outings, round tables.......Lead by example.

 

So I wonder what example that SM was setting. Making excuses for the scouts. I have told parents and Scouters I will never make excuses for their sons.

 

As suggested next time a leader goes ballistic, Ask them if their boys would be allowed on the high school basketball court or ball diamond without a full uniform. Nope.(This message has been edited by Basementdweller)

[sailingpj]

I forgot my hat once, my Skipper came up to me and asked me where it was. I started telling him that it was at home, he asked again, I described where in my room it was, he asked again, I told him exactly the circumstances that that lead to my hat being at home with me at the meeting. He said, "The answer I am looking for is 'I am sorry sir, it will not happen again', now where is your hat?" I never forgot my hat again.

 

Some people may say that that was too harsh, now I don't think so. He was merely teaching me a lesson. I learned that lesson very well. I was boatswain, and it was my responsibility to be a good example to the rest of the crew. Being in uniform is part of the job description, it is no different than working in a office where ties are part of the dress code and walking in one day with no tie. Or a job in a kitchen where you need a hairnet.

 

Unless you are someone like Adrian Monk who would go OCD on it, I think it would be difficult to put too much emphasis on the uniform. Yes, there are special circumstances where it is difficult for some families to get the uniform, but those can usually be worked out and there is no reason not to expect someone to wear the uniform to a event. Plus the definition of a special circumstance is something that is not the norm. I am one of those people, I just moved and joined a new ship. I am going to have to get a new uniform. My new skipper knows that I will be getting one as soon as I get a job here. She also knows that I will continue to wear my old uniform to the meetings because that is what you are supposed to do. There wasn't much discussion about that second portion, it was just expected and understood.

[Scoutfish]

I guess each pack/troop can decide what their "uniform code" should be, but as long as a scout is not denied advancement, as long as he's not denied participation or acceptance in the program... it would be okay.

In our pack, we like our cubs to wear a class A uniform for pack meetings, B&G, field trips, and Crossover.

 

It would be nice if they wore them to den meetings, but not a big deal if they don't.

 

Now, our version of class A for the cubs starts with the official belt and buckle, and works upward from there. We do not require offical pants as we know that a brand new pair of BSA pants can be ruined in 5 mintes. Jeans just hold up better for our boys.

 

Now, at any event where we are wearing the classA uniform, I will make a point of telling a Cub how sharp he looks when his shirt is tucked in and wearing everything right. I will not fuss at a scout who's shirt is out, who isn't wearing the hat or necker. Chances are good that mom and dad didn't say anything other wise, so he may not have a clue.

 

AS the scouts get older, I do explain that looking sharp goes a long way with the publics view and other folks too. But I don't lecture or criticize them.

 

That's what mom and dad are for.

 

 

But I will tell them I expect their best effort for color guard duty.

"Best" being the key word.

 

BSA dsoesn't require uniforms.

 

Don't judge a book by it's cover. The wrapping paper doesn;'t have anything to do with the present

Yeah, all that other stuff too! LOL!

[Basementdweller]

Scoutfish your speaking of cub scouts. I would not expect a Cub Scout Parent to spring for Pants because most Packs aren't that active.

 

The discussion is of Boy Scouts at a Boy Scout Camporee type event. Our Troop Leadership and most of the Youth leaders will be in full uniform, I would not expect a newly crossed over boy to have the complete uniform yet. Just too darn expensive.

 

There is no such thing as a Class A or B uniform. There is Field and Activity uniforms. Field is the common Scout shirt, pants and leather shoes or boots. Activity is a scout t-shirt, pants and tennis shoes or boots.

 

If anyone wishes to argue the point then I ask provide a link to an official BSA site or scanned page that refers to them.(This message has been edited by Basementdweller)

[Eagle92]

basement,

While I agree with 99%, this description below does come a national website, and does describe the Field Uniform as a Class A.

 

http://scoutstuff.org/BSASupply/ItemDetail.aspx?cat=01RTL&ctgy=PRODUCTS&c2=UNIFORMS&C3=TROUSERS&C4=&LV=3&item=689SHORTS&prodid=689SHORTS^8^01RTL&

 

Our Centennial Supplex Uniform Short is designed to offer a Land to Water option that is functional and convenient. Stuck at the Aquatics Center before needing to report to the Mess Hall in full Class A? This new short is the answer!

[Scoutfish]

Basement,my specific example was our CUB SCOUT pack, but my answer was for either or both troops or packs.

 

BSA does not require uniforms. PERIOD! Now, we can argue details about what each person calls them,what color they are or what fabric is best,but that has absolutely nothing to do with what the big answer is :

 

Too much emphasis is placed on uniforms when they are required or if lack of wearing a uniform prevents advancement or participation!

[Adam S]

Uniforms are NOT required

 

BUT

 

They are a METHOD of scouting

 

That says to me if the boy has a Uniform he should wear it. Why do something if your not proud of it?

 

Boy Scout's

I am hard pressed to beleive anyone in scouting more then a couple years cannot afford pants OR that there is not a resource available to them. I know in our Council, most units have spare gear as well as a Council program for under privelaged scouts. I am really surprised by your examples of OA showing up in street clothes to an official function. They are the Honor Society of the BSA, are they not? The best of the best thing....

 

Cub's

I can understand the Cub Scout argument of the boys growing so fast that pants might not be an option ad in the high turnover rat, as well as the amazing rate little boys can tear through the knees (literaly and figuratively!)

 

 

p.s. I am absolutely willing to put my money where my mouth is for local underprivelaged scouts. Scouting made such an impact in my life and 20 years later my sons are involved that I cannot stomach anyone not able to participate because of money. I am sure people interested enough in scouting that they are on this forum probably hold the same opinion.

 

 

[BrentAllen]

Scoutfish,

So, how do you feel about the BSA requiring complete, correct uniform to attend the National Jamboree?

 

BTW, Packs or Troops do not have the authority to change the uniform (i.e. establish Pack policy of waist-up uniform or blue jeans).

 

Yes, a uniform is not required, but the Rules and Regs also state you aren't allowed to alter the uniform or wear parts of it with civilian wear. Wear it all, completely and correctly, or don't wear it.

[OldSchool Scout]

As a tiger Den Leader I always wear the shirt to Den meetings and havent had any issues with my group not showing up in uniform. I believe jeans are fine for den meetings ,but a higher standard needs to be set for pack meetings and any public event( such as a parade). At one pack meeting we had wo boys from the same den recieving awards and one had on full uniform and I think its called a brag vest.To me this showed respect for his pack and pride in his accomplishments. While the other boy was allowed to recieve his award in holy jeans and a T-shirt.