Founder Bar

[Narraticong]

At our ScoutShop this morning I noticed a new insignia. It was a red bar with the word FOUNDER in silver. About the same size as the veteran unit bar and also apprently to go between troop number and CSP.

 

Clerk said they were for those who belong to a unit founded during the Centennial Year. Nice idea. But it would be nicer if the boys in our troop who founded it three years ago could have the same privilege.

 

Has anyone else seen these yet?

 

Ken

[Shriscov]

What I find interesting is that scouts (and scouters) in a newly formed unit might not be seeking different insignia as much as people with more experience. There are probably better incentives for new units than this patch.

Also, even with explanation, I don't see the connection between "founder" and "formed in 2010".

[Scoutfish]

I hasven't heard of it either.

Now,I don't mean this in a bad way..but that's the dumbest thing I've heard of in a while!

I agree, it should be for boys like yours who founded a unit too. Matter of fact, they should get something betwen a founder bar and a veteran bar. Maybe have "Founded 2007" on it. (unless you meant 2006 - the year just changed!)

 

Now, I have no issue celebrating 100 years of scouting, but there's alot to be said for those who didn't just jump in during the party.

Lets look at those who were here before the party started.

[nolesrule]

There's been way too much recognition for things happening in 2010. The focus should be on the previous 100 years.

[Eagle92]

it's not on scoutstuff.org

[ScoutNut]

Perhaps the bar is not for units founded this year, but for those units that have been around since 1910.

 

A Founder Veterans Bar makes much more sense for them.

 

[skeptic]

Now there is a suggestion that would make sense; having a bar with the troop's year of founding. Then, those of us in long time troops would not need to change the bar every five years. Next year we reach 90, and I will then have to order the bars, as we will be only the 2nd such troop in our council, then try to get current scouts to change them out. Have one scout still wearing an 80; gave up trying to get him to put the 85 on.

 

Another idea I feel should be seriously considered by National, is a special border on leadership patches for Jambo troops. I was an ASM in 1985, but the patch I used has no indication of that, other than me. And there certainly would be enough demand to make it worthwhile with the amount of troops attending. The border would be possibly different each time, and include junior leaders as well, and possibly commissioners for regions and so on; or to keep costs lower, they could simply use the same patches each time.

 

 

[Eagle92]

Stupid question, but here it goes. How does one caculate the veteran Status of units that are part of councils that split/merge? I'm curious b/c in doing some research for my district banquet, we had some COs chartering units prior to the creation of the council in 1924. It appears that no unit in the council is older than 86 y.o., when I have evidence that puts some units in existance since 1919.

[AlFansome]

The first place to look would be on the recharter paperwork and see what the Council database thinks. Upper right corner: "Tenure xxx months".

 

If a unit has been continually chartered by the same chartered org, it should go back the right amount. If there was a break or perhaps even a change of CO, then it may have reset.

 

Council merges and splits shouldn't change thing (you'd assume) unless unit numbers change and the unit was re-created under the new number. Even in that case, I'd hope that the tenure would reflect the correct amount of time.

 

For units as old as you're talking about, there may have been alot of factors that affect the time given.

 

[Oak Tree]

Clerk said they were for those who belong to a unit founded during the Centennial Year.

 

Ok, I'm not a clerk at a Scout shop, but this just doesn't sound right to me. If you are listed as a "Founder", I'd think it would mean that you were one of the founding members of the troop. If it said "Founded 2010" or something, then it could mean what the clerk said, but as it is, that just doesn't make any sense to me.

 

I do like the idea of having a whole set of strips "Founded 2000", "Founded 2001", etc. Simpler than the five year increments.

[Eagle92]

Need to clarify, AT LEAST 1919, as that is when the photo of the unit is dated. The town I'm in has been in 3 councils; one prior to 1924, 1924- approx. 1929, then 1929 to today. I know the unit number changed at least one time as the 1919 photo has a different number, a higher one, than the unit today does.

[skeptic]

Our unit was officially chartered in December, 1921, and we have all the paperwork to support it, including the original application. We are fortunate in that regard; and I was able to fix an error in the tenure because we had that material. The other two oldest units in our council also have most of the documentation. We are the second oldest continuous troop; the 3rd oldest lost 5 months when they had a lapse in rechartering, but did recharter in the contiguous year. National did not give them credit for the 5 months they missed, but did keep them as a continuous troop. My understanding is that should they have not rechartered again until the next year, the tenure would have been terminated, and they would have become a new troop on paper. The oldest troop can document to December, 1917, which predates our council. The original recharter for them, as an original troop in the new council, from 1921 shows the at large beginning date on the paperwork.

 

Finding info on units prior to a council actually being there is hit and miss. News clippings, old sponsor records, and so on help. But National's records are either missing or hidden; and trying to get access is very difficult. I have been refused any access to at large Eagle paperwork that would possibly document Eagles that predate our council's origin in June, 1921. We had hundreds of scouts, beginning in the fall of 1910, according to news articles, and a couple of the "original" troops in 1921 had 5+ Eagles in the first decade of the council. So, I would imagine there very well could have been one or two at least prior to the council origin. Proving it without having access to records is next to impossible. The NESA and Eagle search computer logs from 2002 do not appear to have any data on at large registrations through regions or national. I suspect that there is a file somewhere of Eagles that were not assigned to a council when the work was done, as they did not know where they were from for sure, and there was no council affiliation. It took me years to get my own Eagle location corrected in NESA records, as my council merged in 1972, and they had me listed where I am now involved. Finally got that fixed this past year with the book search that occurred. But even then, they messed it up initially.

 

So, I guess you need to find the oldest records available, dig in papers, talk to older scouters who might have info. You may or may not get the answers, but you will find lots of interesting things while doing it. Again, I was fortunate that one of our older scouters and a friend rescued all of our original charter records, dating to the start of the council, before they dumped them when our office moved in the 60's. They were stacked in the attic in our current office, and I spent a couple of months sweltering there for a few hours at a time, organizing them by unit types, and towns. They are now all in boxes, labeled, and available if someone should choose to review them. Maybe I need to check on them, come to think of it. People do dumb things with these type of records. Might have to refile a few, or something.

 

Good luck.

[Scoutfish]

 

 

 

 

Skeptic: Suppose it was a border patch. Kinda like the 100 year centenial ring that goes around the World Crest?

 

 

 

Could be a (for example) a red border patch for SL, blue for ASL green for PL yelow for SPL etc..

then you just stitch the dat on it or maybe have numbers kinda in the style of veteran patches.

 

So basically your patch surrounded by a rank color border with a set of numbers right under/over it?

[Twocubdad]

Where's the market for all this stuff? Does anybody really care? Or is like the post office issuing commemorative stamps knowing collectors will buy a bunch of them and never use the stamp to mail anything. Are they counting on collectors buying up sets of this stuff? I can understand hats and t-shirts and stuff people will buy as a commemorative of the centennial, but what's with monkeying with the insignia? If you earn second class this year, are you really going to stock up on patches just because there is a centennial version? I know it isn't enforced, but it's rather unseemly to me to be buying up earned insignia, even if it isn't technically restricted.

 

What do you bet this time next year the Scout Shops are piled high with this junk on the discount table?

 

Skeptic -- what would be the application of the jamboree POR patches? You should be wearing the patch for your current POR. If you're a jamboree patrol leader, you shouldn't be wearing the PL patch after you return from jambo. In years past, the rule was jamboree contingent stuff (like unit numerals) could be worn only six months after a jamboree.

 

 

[skeptic]

twocubdad: There is an actual significance to be selected a jamboree leader of any sort. While I certainly realize that many care very little about these things, for memorabilia 30 or 40 years later, the special border, or whatever, would show that the person was a leader in a more select group in some capacity. I have a blanket, and it would be nice to have an ASM patch that immediately indicated I was that for our council troop that year. The same goes for the youth who were the junior leaders.

 

I agree that sometimes the patches are over kill; but to me, this makes a lot of sense. Hope that clarifys this for you. There may even be someone that agrees with me; who knows.