When Did You Notice Uniforming Becoming an "Option"

[boomerscout]

"Regardless of whether the school provides it and expects a boy to raise the money to recover costs or cover replacement, he is required to wear it"

SR540:

Sure, if you want to do it this way. Upon joining, the troop furnishes the boy a full uniform and a full gear kit for camping (sleeping bag, ezrest, mess gear, compass, boots, etc).Then, the lad would reimburse the troop a bit each year, depending on family finances, until the full kit is paid off. Most troops would have to scramble to handle it this way, but it is doable, and probably the only way the truly poor can be "proper Scouts".

[Stosh]

Boomerscout:

 

Yes, it is doable, my Venturing crew does exactly that process to uniform our boys. Instead of buying the kit, however, they replace pieces with their own purchases as the money comes in for them. They then turn the loaner piece back into the crew to be lent out to the next kid.

 

Stosh

 

As far as the entrepreneur spirit is concerned, that is a skill many of our boys would do well to develop. Maybe if the parents didn't have money to hand out the kids would figure it out, but with the big $$'s that parents lavish on their children, maybe other lessons should be taught.

 

Not all paper routes are done by adults in vans. The person that delivers my paper pulls a coaster wagon with papers in them, sled in the winter. Routes are advertised all the time in our local paper (City of pop. 55,000)

 

It just depends on how hard one wants to work and how much money they want to make. I haven't been able to make much money sitting at my computer posting on forums, but I do have a day job.

 

Stosh(This message has been edited by jblake47)

[SR540Beaver]

I think my point was lost. It had previously been stated that sports and band are required to wear a uniform because it is provided as opposed to being up to the individual purchasing it themself. My point was that even though my son's school provided the football uniform and gear (helmet, pads, etc), there was an expectation that the boy raise funds equal to the cost of said uniform and gear. So, in a sense it isn't provided.....yet it is still required. They don't get to go to the local sporting goods store and find a pair of bargain basement football pants to wear.

[John-in-KC]

SR540Beaver,

 

Not true in the particular case of my school district. Uniform fee is dry clean it twice during the season. Instrument rental fee is $50 a year.

[boomerscout]

Yes, we understand. The organization provides the uniform, and then it is paid for or reimbursed by the kid. So, the troop provides a full uniform upon joining, and the kid pays it off as he earns the moola.

[Stosh]

However, Scouts is not part of public school any more than youth hockey, soccer, karate, summer baseball, Civil Air Patrol, dance, etc. ALL of which require the parents to purchase uniforms and equipment. I had a daughter in dance that was required to have a brand-new different costume for every performance she was involved in!!!! Add to that I had to pay for the lessons besides! Tossing school uniform activities and non-school uniform activities in together is apples and oranges.

 

If a kid wants to get involved in activities outside of school, they are expected often to make purchases for participation.

 

Sorry, I still don't think having a partial uniform is acceptable, none of these other organizations do, only Scouts have unfortunately cut corners.

 

Stosh

[SR540Beaver]

And the team requires the player to wear it while the troop does not.

 

Let me clarify, the player doesn't actually purchase his uniform. It IS provided by the school. As a means to maintain a balance of funds in the team coffers, the boy sends out letters each year to friends and family listing the price of each piece of uniform and gear her uses and asks for donations in those amounts. How successful he is in raising his quota of funds remains to be seen.

 

The team can require him to wear it because they do supply it and because he would look silly on the field wearing a different clothes from the rest of the team. One obvious purpose a uniforms serves is identification. When you need to throw a pass, you'd better be able to spot your guy down the field.

[boomerscout]

"Tossing school uniform activities and non-school uniform activities in together is apples and oranges."

maybe not so, in the kid's & parents' minds. Both are after school/extra school activities. Who cares who the provider is as long as the kid has a worthwhile time? in beginning karate classes, you can get by with a tee shirt and sweat pants.

"If a kid wants to get involved in activities outside of school, they are expected often to make purchases for participation"

Yes they definitely need camping gear. Not too much left in the household account after buying the pack, the sleeping bag, the boots, the yearly registration...

[Stosh]

I can't be held accountable for what goes on in other peoples' minds.

 

Whether it be school or non-school activities, they are all optional. No one forces anyone to go out for the football team, or the basketball team any more than anyone is forced into karate or Scouts. If one isn't going to pay, they ain't gonna play. If you can't afford it, don't buy it. How do you tell the little 6 year old girl that she can have all the lessons she wants, but when it comes to the performance at the end of the year you can't pay for the $50 costume? Yeah, right, that's gonna sell at that household.

 

It might be smug arrogance or simple hypocracy, but to say you don't need a uniform to be in Scouts and then when it comes to Jamborees and Eagle COH's you must have one to participate? Sounds like dance class to me.

 

Either it's required in full or it isn't, these half-way measures only cause confusion and disappointment along the way. No one else does it, but BSA does. If the expectations were clear, this thread would never have occurred. Obviously something smells a bit foul.

 

When I was in band, I bought a used instrument to play. I played it all the way through junior high, high school and college. I also paid for it's upkeep and repairs and a new case to carry it in. I paid for all my reeds (woodwind instrument) and specialty mouthpieces as needed for the different bands I participated in. If ya want in the game, ante up.

 

I wanted to be in scouts, I paid for it. I wanted to be in band, I paid for it. I know for some it's a foreign concept, but it does work.

 

I'm thinking I would look rather stupid showing up for the first band practice without a horn.

 

And when it came to scouts, I slept many nights in a floorless, doorless canvas pup tent, with my dad's wool military blanket before I could afford something nicer. A melmac plate, plastic cup and silverware out of the drawer got me by until I could buy a mess kit too. One doesn't need the best stuff right from the git go. I may not have been equipped the best, but I had a full uniform with belt, socks and necker.

 

I still weekend camp using the very same Yucca pack I purchased back in the early '60's. It carries just the right amount of gear for the weekend. I did buy a nice external frame when I needed a long-term camp pack, i.e. Philmont, but I was 50 years old then and had been working for a while. Yes, one can make a backpack out of an old pair of pants, it was in the Scout Handbook. They used to have patterns on making tents out of a tarp too. Those things still work today.

 

Making it too expensive is just an excuse to justify not being able to participate in Scouts. It's a bogus argument.

 

My Venturing crew uses open ended pup tents, but only if it rains. Otherwise, meadow crashing is the option they prefer.

 

Stosh

[OldGreyEagle]

I would like to see the requirement on the uniform and an Eagle Court of Honor, the Jamboree one I know about.

 

I think I had an epiphany while looking over the advancement section and assorted threads. The original poster asks:

 

"When Did You Notice Uniforming Becoming an "Option"

 

Like that is the only "option" in the program, it is a visible option, but can we say we all follow the program the same way in all other areas?

 

Is uniforming unique in its position on how units twist it (to some views) any different than a unit that requires attendance at X percent meetings/outings to comply with the scout spirit requirment?

 

What about troops that routinely teach merit badges during their unit meetings, is that not short circuiting the Adult Association method?

 

Can we say that we all use the Patrol Method the same way?

The outdoors? Some units are backpackin' fools while others think anyone who backpacks is a fool. Do we all look at the Outdoor method the same way?

 

I think we get hung up on the uniform and how other troops "do it" because we can look and see how well/poorly another unit is uniformed. We can't look and judge as quickly how the other guys use Advancement, Ideals, Patrols,

Outdoors, Adult Association, Personal Growth and Leadership Development. If these were easily observed, how similar do you think most troops would be to each other?

 

 

[Stosh]

Right or wrong, regulations or not, all the boys attending from our council are required to have two complete uniforms for the event. No, I cannot cite chapter and verse of where this process is prohibited, but that's the "rules" for both contingents.

 

Does that put a hardship on the parents who are already coughing up $1,750 just to go? Probably. Did any one challenge the issue? Nope.

 

It would be interesting to know what would happen if a boy pays the fees and then doesn't show up with his two uniforms.......

 

Like OGE says, everyone emphasizes different areas of the program some of which are not as visible as uniforming. Yet when all the dust settles, how does one "see" the effort a boy goes through to hunt all around the troop for a pair of uniform pants that fit that he can borrow so he can present himself in full uniform for his EBOR. They won't question him on it, they won't even know the pants are borrowed. It may mean nothing to most people, but the effort to look his best is something the scout is going to know and know how much it meant to him. Those personal priorities of leadership to oneself aren't visible even in full uniform.

 

The affluent scout standing in front of his EBOR in a brand new perfectly outfitted uniform is not the same as the poor scout standing in front of his EBOR who had to beg and borrow every piece of uniform from a half dozen buddies to present himself in a fashion important to himself and those he wishes to influence. Not even the uniform is as "visible" as one might first assume.

 

Stosh

[Eagle92]

I personally like the Eagle candidate showing up with a almost outgrown shirt that has "tan lines" from where he's changed temp insignia and removed patrol patches from his uniform, a necker that has a few unremovable stains from when he used it for FA, a MB sash that is a little small from when he bought the regular size a young First Class Scout, and pants that are obviously second hand, and well worn. BUT he has taken the time clean and iron his uniform, and added a few religious and trail medals to the uniform.

 

But that's me.

 

(This message has been edited by eagle92)

[boomerscout]

"I can't be held accountable for what goes on in other peoples' minds."

Sorry, but you are responsible if you're trying to proseletize them

 

"If one isn't going to pay, they ain't gonna play. If you can't afford it, don't buy it." This white, middle-class attitude tells us that if you're too poor to have a uniform, then don't even think of joining the Scouts.

 

"One doesn't need the best stuff right from the git go."

agreed, which is why we suggest foregoing the uniform at first until the kid decides if Scouting is really for him. This decision is generally made half-way to Second Class. Start with the shirt,of course, and gradually add to it so that you're in full uniform by First Class. Kid will be older then, so can find more odd jobs, and has been exposed to work ethic and self-reliance catechism of Scouting

 

"Making it too expensive is just an excuse to justify not being able to participate in Scouts. It's a bogus argument." Not if your factory job went to China, and you haven't found a good, real job for over a year. We take in boys even if all they can afford is rags. Do what you can with what they have instead of what you'd like them to have. Build from there

[SR540Beaver]

Wow JBlake, you guys are getting off light at $1750 and two uniforms. We have three contingent troops and it is costing $2995 and three uniforms. To ease the pain, our SE has said that the boys can mix and match the old ODL and Centennial uniform pieces to make three uniforms.

 

We do a shakedown prior to boarding the plane where the boy has to bring everything packed and one of the adult leadership goes thru it with a checklist to make sure he has everything.

 

Others, it is true that you could do an EBOR without a uniform. You could also go to a job interview for an upper management position in a major corporation wearing shorts and flip flops. It would reflect poorly on you and you probably wouldn't get the job. A boy who has been in scouting long enough to earn Eagle, has been in long enough to either borrow from a friend, select from the pre-owned offerings many troops have or to have raised enough scout bucks to purchase the pieces. I have never sat on an EBOR, but I'd be hard pressed to have a 16 or 17 year old scout appear in street clothes and say that there was absolutely no opportunity over the last 6 years or so to get a uniform. It just isn't that hard.

[Stosh]

"I can't be held accountable for what goes on in other peoples' minds."

Sorry, but you are responsible if you're trying to proseletize them

 

but I'm not trying to proselyte anyone. They have their opinion and that's fine.

 

"If one isn't going to pay, they ain't gonna play. If you can't afford it, don't buy it." This white, middle-class attitude tells us that if you're too poor to have a uniform, then don't even think of joining the Scouts.

 

It's not reserved for the white middle class, it's called Thrifty. Take what money you may have and make the best of it. If it's a choice between putting food on the table or joining Scouts, I'd suggest you get food on the table.

 

"One doesn't need the best stuff right from the git go."

agreed, which is why we suggest foregoing the uniform at first until the kid decides if Scouting is really for him. This decision is generally made half-way to Second Class. Start with the shirt,of course, and gradually add to it so that you're in full uniform by First Class. Kid will be older then, so can find more odd jobs, and has been exposed to work ethic and self-reliance catechism of Scouting

 

Yep, another part of Thrifty.

 

"Making it too expensive is just an excuse to justify not being able to participate in Scouts. It's a bogus argument." Not if your factory job went to China, and you haven't found a good, real job for over a year. We take in boys even if all they can afford is rags. Do what you can with what they have instead of what you'd like them to have. Build from there

 

I just watch every penny and get my best bang for the buck. It's not that difficult if one plans and sets prioritizes. Personal Management MB does a fairly good job of showing this. I was a Scout in full uniform long before I got those things.

 

If you are taking in everyone, then it is the troop's responsibility to help these boys get what they need to be successful in the program.

 

The only difference between your emphasis and mine is that you think it's acceptable to have a sleeping bag and pack over a uniform. I'm thinking one can have the uniform and get by on a blanket from the closet and a rolled up tarp to haul it around in.

 

It's just a difference in priorities. You have yours, I have mine. I have all my boys in full uniform and they are NOT all that well off financially, especially those with 2 boys in the program.

 

As a troop we have very old tents, old stoves, and a lot of junk equipment. When we went to summer camp they didn't have stoves that worked so they cooked exclusively using wood. It was in-site patrol cooking, no mess hall. They didn't have any gas lamps to light up the camp at night and not all boys had flashlights, but they shared. One of the boys hauled his gear in using garbage bags slung over his shoulder.

 

They had a great time at camp, but the best moment for some of the boys was when the Camp Staff gathered at the flag pole for flag retirement the first night, the program director looked at the boys and said, "Hey, everyone's in full uniform, that's great to see."

 

How much did that comment cost us? I don't know, but the value gained was priceless. That sentiment was commented many times throughout that week because those boys wore full uniforms all the time except when they slept and when they were swimming.

 

What amazed me was why were we such an exception? Why does it surprise everyone when a troop wears full uniforms?

 

It used to be that in a glance one could recognize a policeman, a fireman, a soldier, a doctor, and the Scouts. Can't say that much anymore.

 

Stosh