When Did You Notice Uniforming Becoming an "Option"

[SR540Beaver]

We have 59 on our charter this year. We get 20 new scouts per year on average. All but a small handfull of new scouts have and wear complete uniforms. That small handfull are usually missing the pants. A full uniform is never stated as a requirement in our troop. We do however tell new prospects that we are a uniformed troop as is very evident when they visit with us or see us at a recruiting event. The culture exists and is self-perpetuating. To be out of uniform makes you stick out like a sore thumb.

[BrentAllen]

BadenP,

You could be right - I don't visit these Troops every week. But every time I do visit, they are in full uniform. They must have pretty good intel on me, as most of these visits are unannounced.

 

I have Scouts coming from other events. 95% of the time, they have their full uniform in hand, and head straight to the bathroom to change. This is not to please me, it is to help his patrol in the Honor Patrol competition. If he just brings his shirt, it doesn't count.

 

If you and your fellow SMs are seeing only shirts, you are getting what you expect. You don't mind the boys not being in full uniform, so why should they care? Scout Spirit is many things, including the uniform.

[Eagle92]

Brent,

I could have swore you were in Louisiana with that description od Scouts coming form other activities with uniforms in hand. That's how it was in my old troop.

[John-in-KC]

Hmmm, I wonder what would happen if a boy showed up for a football game without his uniform pants, or a soccer game, or a parade if his band was marching? Or if the police wore blue jeans, or combat soldiers had Wal-Mart knock off"

 

Stosh, this argument has fallacies in it:

 

The football team or the band: At HS level, the kid has his uniforms and equipment furnished. The exception is his/her shoes and gloves in band. The instruments can be furnished as well, particularly for the larger items, such as bassoons, tubas, and percussion. The rental fee is nominal for the cost of the instrument. Same thing for the athletic squads.

 

What do we do in Scouting? Make them buy it. I don't know of very many Troops who furnish.

 

EagleSon is now a university sophomore, in a Big 12 marching band. Here's the package the band gave him this year:

- 1 Semester Hour Tuition scholarshipped by the University ($260)

- Band Camp week extra dorm time fees paid by the University (~$100)

- Meals during band camp furnished by the University (~$65)

- Uniform fitted and altered as needed by the University (~$50)

- Game Day meal provided by the University (~$32)

- 1st Band polo furnished by the University (~$25)

- Annual Away Game Trip furnished by the University (~$100 for a 3 day weekend, quad occupancy)

 

The Armed Forces provide the Trooper with his uniform and equipment, free. He's given an annual allowance to replace items wearing out.

 

What do we make Scouts do? Buy it all

 

No, this argument is spurious. HS and college programs furnish the items in kind, in turn there's a reasonable expectation of wear. Ditto the Armed Forces.

[John-in-KC]

Eagle and Brent... I saw the other way, 2 years ago. Kid, an SPL, came in from campout for a parade. He tried to put on his uniform over his camp gear. His pants stuck out. His band director, a Marine (once a Marine, always a Marine) docked him points for being out of uniform. The kid tried to appeal to me; I simply said "what's our motto?" He was crestfallen.

[BrentAllen]

Buy it all?? Hmmm, I must be missing something.

 

What do we give our Scouts? How about 1,000 man hours, per year. How much is that worth to you, and the Scout?

 

10 weekend campouts @ 20 hours x 2 adults

50 Troop meetings @ 1.5 hours x 2 adults

1 week of Summer Camp @ 140 hours x 2 adults

 

My calculations are extremely conservative, as you can see. At just $20 per hour, that gets pretty expensive.

 

My guess is that band director is getting paid. Not too many of us are drawing a pay check from Scouting.

 

Yes, I gladly put in the hours. I expect them to wear the uniform to look and act like Scouts.

[SR540Beaver]

Brent,

 

You are comparing apples and oranges. Gear vs time. One of the draws for our troop is that we supply everything excpt personal gear. Tents, tarps, patrol boxes, cooking and eating gear, stoves, dutch ovens, lanterns, etc. are provided for youth and adults alike. The youth or registered adult needs to supply their uniform (we have a pre-owned selection to choose from), handbook, sleeping bag, flashlight, daypack, etc. My son is 16 and still wearing the same shirts we bought for the 2005 Jambo when he was 12. Yes, they swallowed him at the time. If you buy quality and take care of it, the personal gear bought for a boy will last his whole scouting career. That cost spread over time really isn't all that much. Scouting long term is really a pretty good bargain.

 

All that being said, Scouting is as cheap or expensive as a person makes it. My son and I both went to Jambo in 2005 and will return in 2010. That alone will cost $10,000. Add in his trips to Northern Tier, Philmont and other high adventure trips, and you are looking at another $3,000 easily. But that was our choice to participate in those things. A scout with limited means wouldn't have to spend any of that money as those things are by choice.

[boomerscout]

We all put in the hours; most of us do it gladly. Somehow, our hours do not make it cheaper for the Scout when he goes to scout supply.

When I was younger, teens & adults who wore jeans were the poor, the shiftless and the delinguents. Nowadays, jeans seem to be the uniform of choice the world over. No need for anything else. So, how do you get them into Scout pants? By having good fund-raising so they can be purchased with Scout accounts (IRS rightly or wrongly), or by being presented as part of COH. Give them a reason full uniform is actually needed: full uniform to march in the county or town parade, to assist at civic functions...

For the longest time our own Scouts thought the neckerchief was girlie. Then, one of them learned how to tie the shemagh, and taught it to the others. Who knew you could face the dangers of a sandstorm in the middle of the woods? We now have acceptance of wearing our custom neckers -- a little large, but it's their uniform, and their adventure.

[BrentAllen]

SR Beaver,

You missed my point. John stated that students in marching band have an obligation to wear the uniform because of all the expensive gear they are provided. My point is Scouts have a similar obligation, based on the "expensive" time put in by the adult leaders. I'm not comparing equipment to time, just the obligation.

[SR540Beaver]

Brent,

 

I understand your point, I just don't think it is valid comparison. In our troop, we provide the tents. There is NOT an option for a boy to bring his own tent....even in grandma and grandpa got him one for Christmas and he really, really wants to bring it. If you are in our troop, you use the troop tents. That has nothing to do with how many hours we adults volunteer. Trust me, band teachers and coaches spend a lot of personal time off the clock supporting the band and team out of dedication rather than high pay. Volunteer hours isn't a reason for the band or team to wear the uniform.

[John-in-KC]

And the time of the band director, sectional leaders, band boosters, ad infinitum (and at HS level, only the band director is paid) isn't valuable?

 

SR-Beav is right, apples to oranges, but if you look at time, there's a similar level of commitment by volunteers.

 

I'm not against uniforming. As a youth I had full uniform, as an adult my major concession is Cabela's gray field trou vice Supply Corporations'. I'm just showing the fallacy of Stosh's argument.

[GernBlansten]

Brent, let me get this straight. The scouts should be in full uniform to pay homage and respect for the adults who put in so much time and money into the program.

Who is the uniform for again?

[BrentAllen]

I'll try again...

 

IF you buy John's argument that the students in the band have an obligation to wear the uniform because the band is providing so much expensive equipment...

 

Then why wouldn't a Scout have a similar obligation to wear the uniform because some adults are volunteering so much valuable time?

 

You may not buy John's argument, and that is fine. But if you do, then why not look at Scouting the same way? This is not MY case for why a Scout should wear a uniform. I think he should wear it because he is a Scout.

 

John, as I said before, that band director is getting paid, it is his job. I "volunteer" many hours at my job, as well. For Scouts, it is all volunteer. If you want to stick with the equipment issue, we provide lots of equipment - stoves, tarps, lanterns, cook kits, a trailer to haul it all in.

 

Gern,

Your unit doesn't wear uniforms, so don't waste my time.

[John-in-KC]

Brent,

 

Remember, I am countering Stosh's argument:

Hmmm, I wonder what would happen if a boy showed up for a football game without his uniform pants, or a soccer game, or a parade if his band was marching? Or if the police wore blue jeans, or combat soldiers had Wal-Mart knock off"

 

The argument is about personal equipment, not collective equipment. Not only does the band provide the collective, it provides the personal.

 

As far as money, in my school district only the head coach is paid more... the others are volunteers, as are the boosters. So the time commitment delta isn't quite washed out. But wait! Scoutreach SMs are PAID.

 

If you provide the uniform, you can require its wear. If you don't you may simply encourage and peer pressure its wear.

[BadenP]

Brent the expectation of a fully uniformed scout based on the amount of time you contribute. Well all I can say is that you chose to volunteer those hours, no one forced you, you are always free to resign, so your quid pro quo philosophy/rationale is invalid here. Your troop is not a corporation and you are not the CEO so your logic is as faulty as your expectations.