The Final Word: CS Leader Unit Numbers

[Scoutfish]

Another thought:

While not taking sides, nor saying anybody does not understand what they are talking about ( again, I'm new so I DON'T know)...I have noticed a theme all across these boards, blogs and posts:

Wether it be advancement requirements, how to earn belt loops/ merit badges, or wether it pertains to shirst, patches and pants....

There always seems to be some griping about why this rule, that rule or requirement got changed, added , or dropped. This requirement no longer applies, that merit badge no longer exists, the shirts ( thats a big one!) are suddenlt a different style.

 

Well, what I'm getting at is this: Alot of changes have happened over the years to alot of different areas of scouting - so who's to say that the numbers are not being changed to tan and green?

 

Again, I personally don't care. I think red and white looks better, yet, I don't have any traditional ties to red and white.

 

I'm indifferent about it: no matter what color they are, it's about the boys.

[Eagle92]

Sctfish said

 

"Now, I do have to ask though...If even National gets it wrong...who is to say that Green and Tan are not the right colors? Maybe a memeo was supposed to be sent out saying that everybody is supposed to change at the beginning of 2009 or 2010."

 

 

That is actually a VERY good question. I'll give a very quick recap of how I tried to get the actual answer. And i'll aslo give a little history as well.

 

Usually when something new and major comes out, some type of book precedes it, for uniforms and insignia it's the Insignia Guide. Also with uniforms, the Uniform Inspection Sheets are also prior to or at intorduction of th new stuff.

 

Problem with the CU was that no IG or UIS were out at the time of intro, only a brochure introing the new uniform hyping up the materials, and then a pamphlet going over the CU. So from August 2008 to approx Mar/Apr. 2009, you had only the two items above.

 

In late Mar/early Apr 2009 the IG comes out, but is not available everywhere. Some folks started started posting about the info in hte IG both here and on MYSCOUTING.ORG and their Scouting Community Section (SC). However it is full of errors, and some folks noted the the unit numbers for CS and their leaders according to the IG was still red. THAT started raising alot of questions and many folks believed that it was one of the errors of the book.

 

That is when I began looking at BSA literature on the Scoutstuff.org website. Some of the literature had green and tans listed and/or shown for everyone in the CU, including CS. Heck you still see this error in the 2010 catalog on page 42 with the Webelos wearing tan and green numbers, apparently that photo op was doen during that time period. BUT the UIS stated that red and whites for CS and their leaders. HOWEVER that form also showed both the ODL and CU shirts, and the drawings did not help.

 

Since the bulk of the info said one thing, BUT the UIS siad soemthing, I called a nationally owned Scout shop and talked to an old friend, in fact someone I trained when I worked for them. Long story short, that indiviual stated that the IG was chocked full of errors, national had not sent any memos to them stating that CS and their leaders wearing CUs still wore red and whites, and that national hadn't been to helpful for those on the fron lines. He also expressed his opinion, and we all knwo what opnions can be like, that the reference to red and whites may stem formt he fact that the ladies yellow and blue uniform is still current, adn the red and whites in the IG shoud have sated for them, remembering that the IG was full of mistakes. After to my friend, I went ahead and bought my green and tan unit numbers and trained strip.

 

It was after that purchase and time spent sewing on the insignia, that national started showing tan and red numebrs for CS and CS leaders. That lasted about two weeks. Then 80% of the literature started showing and stating that yes CS and CS leaders, as well as Venturing folks but that was never an issue, did indeed wear red and white numbers still.

 

FYI this was a very sore point with folks in my neck of the woods.

 

As national has been notified of continuing errors in their literature, thjey have been correcting it. BUT as can bee seen with the current catalog, it takes time to change things.

[Eagle92]

Yep there is a lot of complaining when things change. Part of it is human nature, we don't like change, and part of it is the passion of it's members and leaders. We don't want to see a great program destroyed.

 

You see once upon a time Scouting made some drastic changes to the program, and it nearly destroyed the program. that was in 1973 and the introduction of 'urban Scouting" It took the legendary Green Bar Bill to come out of retirement and get the program back to basics in 1979 before things turned around, and even to this day after 30 years of GBB doing his thing, BSA is not at the levels that it was prior to the change.

 

So when program changes do occur, people do get concerned. And I think with good reason too.

 

Now in reference to the uniform changes, they were so out of the blue they took a lot of folks by But what made matters really worse was that there was little guidance on the uniform changes, basically a pdf file, instead of the usual IG. to make matters worse, not only was the IG was several months late, it did have errors in it and reversed things that went into effect 8 months earlier. While that may not seem like much, remember you get a large intake of new leaders and Webelos who were affected,a nd that did tick soem folks off. uniforms aren't cheap, and every penny saved is needed.(This message has been edited by eagle92)

[Scoutfish]

Eagle 92.....Your post made more sense to me, because alot of the stuff you said did not make sense (to me that is). LOL!

Basically, I understand ther is a set of standards that National put out that said "Definant Maybe" , or along the lines og " You always do this unless you don't on every day of the week that ends with "y".

Maybe you only wear red and white on months that have 28 days LOL!

 

I'm not into supporting or condoneing mutiny or what not, but maybe the councils shouls all send National a letter stating something to the fact of "We will act like the individual states of The United States of America by adopting our own individual specs and requirements as there is a failure on Nationals part to explain, impliment, and clarify a reasonable set of standards!

[Eagle92]

Pretty much. LOL. 99.999% of the time BSA has some type of rule or book for whatever topic at hand, but with the Centennial uniforms, the book didn't come out until later, and then they kept changing things on us and not telling those in the need to know; Scout Shop personell, local distributors, and leaders. It was basically going on a wild goose hunt to get the info that should havebeen easily available in a timely manner.

[emb021]

"Yep there is a lot of complaining when things change. Part of it is human nature, we don't like change, and part of it is the passion of it's members and leaders. We don't want to see a great program destroyed."

 

What Eagle92 said is good, but let me add to this.

 

Yes, things change. Sometimes we like it, sometimes we don't. (heck, there is a reason that dealing with change is something that many organizations have to deal with. We have the 'who moved my cheese' and such books that look at that whole matter).

 

I think a big part of this, and Eagle92's message shows this, is HOW that change is communicated by the BSA. Too often, the information isn't communicated well or its spotty or inconsistant. What isn't helped is that many times this information needs to be updated in a variety of sources, BUT these sources are seldom updated, so people argue and disagree with the new info, because source X says one thing, but source Y says something else.

 

And you can't blame some people from being doubtful when documents don't agree, because how can you judge that one is more accurate then another, or some email from 'someone at National' is more accurate?

 

Its said, as the BSA has a national magazine AND a website, and these could be sources of delivering correct information, but too often isn't used for that, usually only after the fact.

 

Plus, they need to do a better job of updating their documents (and you know, using us volunteers would really help...)

 

 

[BklynEagle]

>Brklyn, Welcome to the forums. You may need to be care/get your council's approval for that. BSA nationally and some local councils, are really getting anal retentive about BSA 'branding" and ARE going after individuals and units. There is a troop in my district that had the lawyers coming after them b/c they designed an all in one patch that had my council's old CSP design in it. Looked great, but it violated the law and they had to quit makign them. Came to someone's legal eyes via an ebay sale.<

 

Thanks for your concern, Eagle92. If the Council goes after my guys, they're gonna hafta go after a heckuva lot of other troops, not to mention a few OA Lodges, the Brooklyn Eagle Scout Association, AND themselves. (Customizing seems to be common in GNYC.) If National starts squawking, that, of course, is another matter entirely, but do they really need to go ticking off more people then they already have (Particularly the Eagles and Arrowmen of New York)?

[emb021]

"You may need to be care/get your council's approval for that. BSA nationally and some local councils, are really getting anal retentive about BSA 'branding" and ARE going after individuals and units."

 

It's not just the BSA. It seems to be a trend. I'm involved in 2 other national membership orgs, and both have really jumped on the 'brand identity' wagon of late, coming out with new brand identity guidelines that they are enforcing.

 

 

[Oak Tree]

do they really need to go ticking off more people then they already have?

 

The answer that I think the lawyers would give is yes, they do need to protect their brand. If they are aware of people using it without authorization and do nothing to stop it, then they can lose legal protection. Hence all manner of organizations sue the little guy. Companies do it all the time, even when they don't really want to. Get your law firm to send out a "Cease and desist" letter.

 

It seems to me like there must be some way that they could let groups get authorization more easily, but I can see where you need to retain some control. Don't want some random patrol of jokesters producing a wildly inappropriate patch.

[Eagle92]

Actually there is a process where units and t-shirt shops etc CAN get permission to make their own. That new process was the topic of a RT recently in my district.

[AlFansome]

Some/all the info Eagle92 is referring to is at

http://www.scouting.org/sitecore/content/Licensing/Doing%20Business%20with%20Boy%20Scouts%20of%20America.aspx

[BklynEagle]

Eagle92 - >BSA nationally and some local councils, are really getting anal retentive about BSA 'branding" and ARE going after individuals and units. There is a troop in my district that had the lawyers coming after them b/c they designed an all in one patch that had my council's old CSP design in it. Looked great, but it violated the law and they had to quit makign them<

Oak Tree - >The answer that I think the lawyers would give is yes, they do need to protect their brand. If they are aware of people using it without authorization and do nothing to stop it, then they can lose legal protection. Hence all manner of organizations sue the little guy. Companies do it all the time, even when they don't really want to. Get your law firm to send out a "Cease and desist" letter. <

 

Contemplating on the above two posts, I think that my troop, as well as most (though not all) of the other troops/packs/lodges/associations/etc. that I mentioned before probably shouldn't have to worry, as a formal BSA image is not incorporated in the customized article. As we (the varied groups) aren't infringing upon National's copyright to its images, they shouldn't harass us about our images, which, as a rule, are original designs made by our respective members or a duly commissioned outside source. Having said that, I agree with Oak Tree's later assertion that "... you need to retain some control. Don't want some random patrol of jokesters producing a wildly inappropriate patch", but frankly, I have to wonder at the quality of Troop Leadership if it is permitting the Scouts to go completely off the deep end with patch design (Yes, I know, "boy run organization", but we, the adults, have a responsibility to insist and enforce a certain amount of decorum. But that's for another thread )

[Eagle92]

Brklyn,

Please don't take this the wrong way, not trying to be a pain in the buttocks, but as I mentioned this topic came up recently at one of the RTs, and I beleive it was b/c of the unit I mentioned. Even using a local council's CSP design and/or their name in the design can be seen as copyright infringement or whatever the problem was. The troop in question got into trouble for creating a "all-in-one" patch that used the old CSP design, listed the council's name, listed the lcoation of the troop, and the unit number.

 

Now the council did not have a problem with another troop making one piece red and white with City and State info, instead of the CSP.

 

 

Where's Beavah when we need him on these legal issues, LOL.

[imjeffp]

Sounds like we need to spin off a thread.

[BklynEagle]

Believe me, Eagle92, no offence taken, and not trying to dish it out either. Obviously, your council is highly concerned with its legal protections. I'm sure they have a good reason for this. The fact that the troop you mention made use of a Council-designed CSP, even an old one, is probably the real crux of the issue there. Having said that, they may even have an objection to being mentioned on what effectively amounts to an advertisement without their consent. The varied organizations here in NYC have (by and large; there are exceptions) not made use of any image not created by persons duly authorized by those respective organizations. That's why I contend that most of us should be safe. So far, no one in GNYC has objected, and they've had plenty of opportunities to see these custom patches for themselves (My DE has been surrounded by a sea of our custom patches at numerous Eagle COHs, as well as our Anniversary Dinner a few years back). Naturally, though, councils vary, and what my council tolerates, your council may not. That is, as I sure you'll agree, the nature of wide-spread organizations; there is variety in operation.

 

As far as where Beavah might be, I can be reasonably confident that he isn't up here; our rivers are too polluted for any living animal to dam