Uniforming at a BOR

[Beavah]

In da parent thread, I made an incidental comment that lecturin' or remindin' an Eagle candidate that he had to wear official pants or somesuch might be a bit out of place (along with running him through adult pre-BOR paperwork and checklists and such). That thread was really talkin' about extra adult hurdles at EBORs.

 

My comment seemed to generate some feedback, so I figured I'd move it to a new thread so the BOR thread wouldn't get hijacked. I've copied skeptic's response here since it was pretty clear:

 

As far as uniforming goes, the district does not control a troop's uniforming habits. But, the scout needs to understand that the uniform is important to putting forth the proper image to the board. We have never had any scout contest this minor reminder. If you went to a job interview in jeans and wrinkled t-shirt, it unlikely you will give a good impression, unless it is for a job in which that attire is the norm; and even then, it might lessen your chances if most others came dressed more appropriately. I find it hard to believe that you would not consider uniforming important for a review at this level, one done outside of the troop.

 

What do folks think of that? Do we feel an EBOR should be like a job interview? For what kind of job?

 

Da original post said somethin' about the lad didn't have to own pants, just had to borrow some for one night. Does that make sense? An EBOR is sorta like a prom, yeh have to rent a tux for the night?

 

Just curious how different folks approach it.

 

Beavah

 

 

 

[BrentAllen]

Uniforming goes beyond just the parts. Wearing the correct, complete uniform shows respect for the organization. It also is part of leadership. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe every single Position Description Card out of the Troop Leader Training program, from Den Chief to SPL, carries the same requirement: "Wear the Scout uniform correctly." If a Scout can't even do that, do they really deserve the highest rank in the program? Aren't these supposed to be our shining stars, the best of the best?

 

What is your expectation, Beavah?

[gcnphkr]

While I would like to see the candidate in complete and correct uniform, that is not always practical. Several of the boards I've sat on were of LDS scouts who were currently in their Venturing program. If they had a uniform it was old and ill fitting. I'd much rather these scouts show up in a clean and pressed pair of slacks, buttoned shirt with a tie. But even that does not always happen.

 

We had one scout in a old uniform, incorrect insignia (IIRC he had a Star emblem for one thing). It was wrinkled, disheveled and he tended to slouch with is hands stuffed down into his pockets. We had a discussion about his appearance and the importance of at least appearing like he cares. This lack of organization and discipline was apparent on his application (evidently he earned the "Public Spectator" merit badge) and project (much of the write up was in pencil). He was an hour late to the BOR. We may not have liked it, but as far as we could determine he had completed the requirements and was approved for Eagle.

[scoutldr]

In my neck of the woods, EBOR are conducted by the units, with a District Rep present. So, having the SM and troop committee tell the scout, "wear the Scout uniform correctly", while they are wearing blue jeans, doesn't mean much. As the District Rep, if I walk in the room, and I see what the troop custom is, I don't berate the scout for following the custom, however wrong it may be. More frequently, I see minor infractions, such as wearing the OA sash AND the MB sash, or wearing the MB sash on the belt. I, of course, will always be in full and proper uniform.

 

 

 

[Beavah]

What is your expectation, Beavah?

 

I was goin' to let some others jump in, but OK.

 

I don't see da EBOR as a "job interview." I see it as an Eagle Review. An enjoyable discussion about Scoutin' with a boy who has spent a lot of time in the program. If it were a job interview, I'd be doin' a heck of a lot more testing and retesting. And if it were a prom, there'd be girls .

 

As a district/council fellow, I like to see lads come in uniform. I don't get uptight about things like socks or wearin' tennies instead of hikers. I really dislike blue jeans with the shirt myself, but I don't pay much attention to official vs. unofficial pants. Don't get out a ruler for patches, and laugh along with the lad at unofficial or joke patches. Don't need a sash to tell me about the boy when I have an application in front of me that lists his badges.

 

So while I like to see lads come in uniform, I'd never be so rude as to comment on their clothing, or so silly as to judge 'em on it. Done all kinds of reviews over da years with lads comin' from church in church clothes or from other events wearin' those clothes. Even done some in da field at camps wearin' rain gear. Those have been some of the best, to be honest.

 

To my mind we're a kids' program, not a job interview. We shouldn't take ourselves too seriously. It's OK to encourage kids to be proud and wear their uniform well, but that's a program thing, not an EBOR thing. I'm not goin' to help the lad learn anything by nitpickin' somethin' at his EBOR if 3-7 years in his troop hasn't taught it to him.

 

And I confess I worry a bit about da adults who try to turn an EBOR into a job interview, or a dissertation defense, or any of that stuff. I worry that they don't quite get it.

 

But I'm interested in hearin' all kinds of other opinions!

 

Beavah

 

[nrp1488]

If I had been on that EBOR and the scout was an hour late, we wouldn't have known it because the EBOR would not have been in session when he got there. We would have been at least a half hour down the road.

[gcnphkr]

It was our third for the night, we had just finished the second and were asked to stick around for this guy. He was there in his soccer uniform (which they get correct or they don't play) waiting for his mother to get there with his BS uniform. She did not get there for another 15 minutes. If we had known when we were first asked we would have had him come back the next month. When the chair asked what I thought, I said something like, "If this scout doesn't get turned down then why do we even bother with this?"

[JerseyScout]

We are not a uniform troop (they generally come out for our annual Court of Honor and our Eagle Courts of Honor), but well impress on the boys that jeans are never acceptable. Boy Scout pants are nice, but cost extra money, money that some of our kids (especially lately) just don't have. A pair of kackis or church pants will do just fine, and (if its one of those kids that never dresses up) are much easier to borrow from a cousin, neighbor, or fellow Scout.

[eaglescout1996]

There was at least twice I can remember, that my family let another scout borrow a pair of pants for his EBOR. For some, the pants might be an expense a family can't justify and they haven't been able to find some second hand, but it was always important to be fully uniformed for your EBOR.

 

If the EBORs are just going over the application, why have them in the first place? Shouldn't the entire Scout and his experience be under review, it is a "Board of Review" after all? I'm not saying ask the young man to demonstrate tying a bowline on a bight behind his back, blind-folded, in the dark, and in 3.1 seconds, but has he lived by the Scout Oath and Law, demonstrated leadership (not just completed a service project), what has he recieved from Scouting in return, ect. If a potential Eagle Scout doesn't have enough respect for himself or the BOR to not only show up in a complete uniform (shirt, pants, belt, and hopefully necker) that is IRONED, do we really think the highest Scout achievement should be bestowed upon them?

 

Yes, I'm an Eagle Scout, and I recieved it by the skin of my teeth (4 months after my 18th brithday...long story!), and was one of those guys who was a life scout for over 5 years. I'm not trying to be "protective" of the Eagle Scout Award, but has that Scout demonstrated that he has not only given back to the community, but received something as well.

 

I don't remember much from my EBOR, probably since I had to appeal to the Council Advancement Committee because my Scoutmaster refused to sign my Project Packet and give me a SMC....and she fought with tooth and nails trying to bar me from attending an EBOR. But what I do remember was a specific question on leadership....not my Eagle Project, but other projects I lead in and out of Scouting. After talking about being a three sport athlete, president of the Key Club, and attending Boy State, I spoke about a clothing drive I organized for avalanche victims in Turkey in '92 (attached to my packet were various documents, one being the letter from the Council Field Director praising me for the project). How I got word out what we were doing, had Scouts in my Troop go door to door to collect items, went around collecting boxes, which we then pack up the clothes in, and then arranged with my Father's commander to have them flown to Turkey where he was doing humanitarian relief work with the Army. The Board asked me how come I didn't write that up and use that as my Eagle Project...my only response was, "I don't know, on one of the phone calls I received from my dad, he mentioned what had happened, and I just decided to do it." Afterward, when they brought be back in to let me know I "passed" the BOR, they specifically mentioned the clothing drive, and that apparently for me, it really wasn't about advancing, but about growing as a young man.

 

I'm not saying every young man is going to have a story like that...but I believe being an Eagle Scout is more than just checking the boxes, and showing up in a complete uniform is part of that process.

[GernBlansten]

If a young man showed up at a EBOR without a complete uniform, I suppose it would be appropriate during the BOR to ask him about it. Say he came in blue jeans and the ODR shirt, no necker, and flip flops.

 

An appropriate question might be: "I see you don't wear the complete uniform. Is that standard in your unit?" If his response was no, his unit is a full uniform unit. Then that might lead into a whole like of questions on why he doesn't follow his unit expectations.

 

If he responded that his unit isn't a full uniform one and he is dressed like everyone else in his unit, then that would lead down a whole different path. Follow up questions like "how do you like that?" "Do you think relaxing the uniform makes for a more relaxed troop?"

 

Either way, it shouldn't be a cause to deny the scout his Eagle. Just a data point to evaluate the scout and the program.

 

What if the scout showed up without a single piece of the uniform?

[skeptic]

One would hope that it is a given that a Boy Scout review for Eagle holds certain expectations, including respect for the himself, the BSA and its related ideals and associations (which would include a proper uniform), respect for his community, school, family, and so on.

In most cases, if a scout shows up to an EBOR with no uniform, or in general disheveled appearance, it will not enhance his board, and generally would show lack of respect for most of the above. On the other hand, if there is a valid reason to be in such disarray, then it might be overlooked. But, other than careless scheduling, or unexpected emergencies, I cannot think of much that would lead to that.

The uniform does not make the scout; but it reflects upon him in many respects. Again, that is my view. But, as a leader, I could not have that expectation if it was not one that was consistently portrayed within the unit, and by my own example.

[Beavah]

If a potential Eagle Scout doesn't have enough respect for himself or the BOR to not only show up in a complete uniform (shirt, pants, belt, and hopefully necker) that is IRONED...

 

Yah, hmmmm...

 

Has anyone tried to iron the new uniform?

 

I'd think da thing would melt all over the iron.

 

I actually sorta like dirty, faded, rumpled uniforms, eh? Tells me they've been worn.

 

B

 

[shortridge]

Why would uniforming expectations be any different at an Eagle BOR versus a Life or Star BOR?

[GernBlansten]

Beavah makes an interesting point.

 

Which scout demonstrates the best scout spirit.

 

One who is the picture perfect example from the scout catalog with crisp, clean uniform. The classic parlor scout. One who either never used the field uniform in the field, or bought it specifically for the EBOR.

 

Or

 

One whose uniform has burn holes in it, stains from mucking through the moose muck, tears from the paths taken off trail. Pieces missing because they got snagged on low hanging adventure.

 

Or

 

One who shows up in his street clothes because he's simply outgrown his uniform and saw no need to purchase a new one for a meeting with adults. (A scout is thrifty)

[John-in-KC]

Gern,

 

None.

 

Scout Spirit is how you live the Oath and Law in your daily life. I'd want to hear who and how the young man is away from Troop meetings, Troop campouts, and Patrol meetings/hikes/camps/activities.

 

Now, as to uniform:

 

It's the same as any other part of the BOR. It comes from my belief that the EBOR is the boys' night. The ECOH is celebration for family, friends and mentors. The boy is the center of attention, it's an expression to others.

 

I want to see a Scout approach his EBOR not as a "check-a-block" evening, but as something which matters. His shirt can be patched over for tears and burns ... but I expect it clean. The patches can be frayed ... but I want them all the way on (not pinned, not duct-taped, not badge magiced and falling off). He can choose coat and tie. I want to see the maturity in the young man that says "this matters."

 

Why?

 

Anywhere from days to a couple years in advance, this young man may be talking to an interlocutor to get into the college he wants to go to... or to get the internship he really wants. I want to see some passion, some spark.

 

This is why I advocate the Scout have great sway in where the EBOR be conducted (let it be someplace which touches his heart, not an assembly line classroom in not even his church) and in whosits his EBOR. Are there not people in Billy's life who will challenge him, yet are the people he respects enough to be his role models? Let's give them a chance to challenge and mentor, yet share the good times yet again with a yarn or three.

 

Unfortunately, the National Advancement Committee and I seem to disagree on this last point. Their loss.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)