Does the uniform drive kids away?

[theysawyoucomin']

This question came from Eammon's great post about uniforms that became about 11 pages long.

I don't agree with some things on that post, but that's ok if Eammon was in my District I would probably seek him out at a Camporee to get his opinion over a cup of coffee or piece of pie.

This question or statement centers on the discussion on pages 7-9 about uniforms.

 

I stated that we can't just let kid's do what they want whenever they want.

 

I guess that needs to be clarified.

 

We are supposed to teach them to make sound and ethical choices at certain times.

 

One thing that bothered me once was a scout wore flip flops with his uniform to another Scout's Eagle COH. I thought that was bad form. I did not say anything. But still thought it was bad form. I live near Albany N.Y. Not Honolulu(sp?)

 

At a semi formal dance for the 8th graders we had a boy do the same thing, flip flops and tee shirt with shorts. Girls purchased new dresses, boys in ties. Now this kid must wear a tie as part of the Basketball team and as part of the band, so let us not even go down the affordability road. I saw kids I know are "poor" who looked great.

 

A lot of the uniform argument centers on conforming to a standard. National helps us by saying that a uniform is not required(gotta love it) and then putting out a magazine where kids wear uniforms.

 

I would be the first to agree you can have a very good kid who owns only a Troop tshirt and nothing else. I think is incumbent upon the adults to set up uniform banks. In time that very zealous Scout would love a hand me down uniform.

 

There was even a story about "inside the Neverland Ranch". There was a picture of a manequin (sp?) with a Boy Scout uniform, shirt pants socks and hat. Was this the king of Pop wishing to turn back time to his youth that he missed? Slumber parties with little boys are OK as long as your birth certificate says you are a little boy too. We call them camporees. The best times in life are giggling and laughing in tents just before you fall asleep and taliking about the day or whatever your Scoutmaster did to make his canoe overturn.

 

Every kid I see wears his ball cap on backwards. Some suffer painful mutilation (sp?) to get ears pierced just to fit in. What standard are they conforming to? Kids wear tee shirts from aeropostale and other brand names and pay $35 for a tee shirt that's hip just to "conform". The folks in the boardroom must love the idiocy of conforming because it is making them filthy rich.

 

The beltless style of wearing your pants half off your backside comes from having you belt taken away while behind bars.

Again we see conformance by those who want to fit in.

 

I see adults getting tattoos of Asian symbols that they haven't a clue what they mean. Or tribal tattoos, what tribe does some white guy from Chicago(or Peroria) want to be in?

 

I think Eammon (it matters not who said it) also stated that a Scout quickly takes off his uniform when he is around his girlfriend.

 

Well heck, if she likes the lad isn't she supposed to like him warts and all for who he is? Are we really talking about hiding that the boy is a Scout? Does that mean she would not want to attend his Eagle ceremony, he might wear his uniform there?

 

I think I would like the boys in the Troop to be proud enough to say (and express through uniforming and other methods) "Yes, I'm a Boy Scout. I like it. And we got room for you too if you want to join"

 

If we don't have that- then yes I would agree we will not survive as a movement.

 

While the ACLU fights for acceptance for everyone's individual expressions, why are those of the BSA; uniforms , standards, and customs being critized by a vocal group both in and out of Scouting?

[Lisabob]

Interesting post. Thank you for that.

 

I would just point out that I don't see the connection to the ACLU though. Nobody is arguing that scouts and scouters should NOT have a right to wear the uniform pretty much anytime they please. Certainly, the ACLU isn't making such an argument, and would probably stand up for the right to expression via uniforming if such a case came up.

[theysawyoucomin']

Lisa,

 

Please comment again but don't focus on the ACLU.

 

We agree on very little but I am always ready to "hear" (really read) what you have to say.

 

"While the ACLU fights for acceptance for everyone's individual expressions, why are those of the BSA; uniforms , standards, and customs being critized by a vocal group both in and out of Scouting?"

 

 

Please strike that and add:

 

"While many fight for acceptance for everyone's individual expressions, why are those of the BSA; uniforms , standards, and customs being critized by a vocal group both in and out of Scouting?"

 

When the ACLU begins to fight for gun rights as strongly as the right to call an image of a crucifix in a glass pitcher of urine "art"--they may have some street cred.

 

We can fight about them if you wish to pm me.

 

Let us talk about uniforms and the zeal to be smartly turned out as we present the image of Scouting.

 

 

[Hal_Crawford]

"While the ACLU fights for acceptance for everyone's individual expressions, why are those of the BSA; uniforms , standards, and customs being critized by a vocal group both in and out of Scouting?"

 

"When the ACLU begins to fight for gun rights as strongly as the right to call an image of a crucifix in a glass pitcher of urine "art"--they may have some street cred. "

 

Used to Be:

I think this might be a record. You hijacked your own thread in the first message. Objected to it in your second and then did it again. Perhaps the title of the thread should be ACLU and the BSA uniform. Unfortunately, there isn't much to work with since I doubt that the ACLU has a position one way or the other regarding the uniform.

 

What bothers me here is how so many threads become an issue of conservative vs. liberal. Gun rights and sacrilegious art have nothing to do with whether or not scouts are proud to wear their uniform or are driven away by it.

 

To respond to the topic. Yes. The uniform does drive kids away. So does camping and hiking and sports and girls and cars and the membership policies and the other boys in the troop and parents pushing them to earn Eagle cause it will look really good on his college application or because his father did (or didn't). Lots of things drive kids away from scouts not the least of which is, "I never really wanted to join but my parents said I should".

 

The question should be, is it a uniform that those who choose to be scouts want to wear?

 

Hal

 

 

 

[Lisabob]

Fair enough, and no I don't see much point in discussing ACLU further via pm. We probably just wouldn't agree, as you said, and that's ok by me.

 

So back to the topic at hand. I guess the question for me is, who sets the standards, and why?

 

At a school function, standards are set by the school. At a church function, standards are set by the leaders of that church. Of course parents have a great deal of influence too, and could (for example) inform junior that he will not be leaving the house in that outfit, or that they will not pay for that shirt, etc. I know I have done that, and I bet you probably have too. Some parents pick different battles than others though.

 

Now if in school, in church, and in many other aspects of a child's life it is adults who are setting out the expectations, what about in scouting? Here we purport to give more freedom to the boys to make their own decisions, within an ethical framework. Sometimes they will need more guidance in figuring out where the boundaries of that framework lie. There is a question as to how much guidance, and how broadly to set the boundaries. Some scenarios:

 

Maybe adults impose a rule that says "no screamo band t shirts or other "inappropriate" clothing at scouting functions" but beyond that, the boys choose what to wear. That gives a lot of latitude to each boy to grapple with the ethical decision making business. It will probably also lead to a troop where few younger boys, but maybe more older boys, wear some or all of the uniform. Such an approach demands of the adults that we provide boys with solid explanations for why the scout uniform is desirable, and then we respect their ability to turn the explanations over in their own minds. It requires of the kids that they actually think about matters for themselves rather than just following others by rote.

 

Or maybe adults impose a rule that says "either scout-related T shirts or uniform shirts are ok." That leaves the scout with a much narrower option, but still an option. Let them decide when one vs. the other is appropriate. I bet they figure it out fairly quickly, and I would expect that in such a troop, most boys would wear a troop T to weekly meetings and camp outs, and save the full uniform for formal events.

 

Or maybe adults impose a rule that says "scout uniform shirts only, scout pants optional." We see this all the time, don't we. The boys will own and (maybe grudgingly) wear the shirts. I know your son likes the older style pants (which is great for you, as they are widely available at a low price on ebay!) so he might have shown up with the older style scout pants but probably most other boys would not have. With the newer pants, I think it is far more likely that more of the boys in such a troop would wear scout pants too. But this approach gives scouts fairly little opportunity to think about uniforming for themselves, in my view.

 

Or maybe adults impose a rule, like in my son's troop, that it is a full uniform troop. Nobody travels with the troop out of uniform. Show up without your socks/belt/necker/hat (let alone shirt & pants) and you'll be sent back to get them, plus you will probably need to get your own ride to the event because the rest of the troop isn't going to wait. No boards of review if you aren't in full uniform either. This rule is about as coercive as I can think of. It does work if the aim is to get a truly uniformed troop. All of the boys and adults in my son's troop show up to pretty much everything in full uniform. Over time, it becomes ingrained that this is just how the troop functions. Older boys take on the responsibility of passing it along to the next generation of scouts who join. I am not convinced that it works in terms of teaching boys to think through the ramifications of a particular behavior (uniforming in this case) for themselves. In that regard, I don't think it helps teach boys to make ethical decisions over a life time. It does teach them to wear a uniform because Mr Z said so.

 

The first three scenarios require that the official uniform be functional and not grossly out of step with boys' senses of what is acceptable. While the consensus seems to be that things are improving regarding the form and functionality of the uniform, I think there is still room for more improvement. If that happens, scenarios 1-3 would be more likely to yield a more fully uniformed troop than is currently the case. The last scenario, heck it could be a hawaian print mu mu and lei, and the boys would have no choice but to wear it (or quit).

 

I agree there can be many benefits to uniforming. Perhaps the question is not so much whether uniforming itself is desirable but instead, whether the type of uniform prescribed makes much sense, and how much latitude we want to give the boys to make these decisions on their own.

[boomerscout]

maybe if we made Scouting more interesting, the uniform thing would become a non-issue. Too many weekly troop meetings are in the church basement doing the same old same old -- how boring! Philmont? That's only once every two years if you're lucky.

[shortridge]

Generally speaking, kids like to fit in as part of a group. It's social conditioning and conformity. The young man who takes of his uniform as soon as he's with his girlfriend doesn't want to stand out. I'll wager that if he were a member of Lisabob's full uniform troop, he wouldn't wear jeans because he'd stand out there.

 

That said, there are some folks who want to stand out, via extreme clothing, slogans, piercings, tattoos, etc. However, that's becoming so commonplace nowadays, it's almost become the standard... so kids are displaying those things to fit in rather than stand out.

 

The uniform isn't the goal. It's a byproduct of having a program that's so exciting and interesting that Scouts are eager to wear it, and it's a method of group cohesion to help make the program exciting and interesting - a circular system. To put the uniform up on a pedestal and ignore other factors involved is to fail.

 

And uz2bnowl - if you find anyone outside of Scouting who is criticizing the uniform, please post it here. I'd love to hear about it.(This message has been edited by shortridge)

[OldGreyEagle]

I do not think the uniform drives kids away. I think the uniform is a soft target that can be blamed. Very few youth can stand the thought of being good, whether the term is "being square" "being a goody goody two shoes", or even the ever popular "What are you, a Boy Scout?" has never been exactly a compliment. Rather than change the uniform perhaps we should work on the culture's acceptance of who embrace the values of the scout oath and law as a life style?

 

(gotcha didnt I no, I am not serious)

 

 

If you have a good program and leaders who can impart they care, the uniform is not a big deal.

 

[Lisabob]

Well we have had girlfriends show up for eagle projects and courts of honor! The older guys who are in scouts don't tend to hide it. Some of them might not widely advertise and I doubt they'd wear the full uniform to school but most don't appear as horrified at the thought of someone "finding out" as the 11-14 year old crowd seems to be.

[BrentAllen]

Lisa writes "Here we purport to give more freedom to the boys to make their own decisions, within an ethical framework."

 

Since the BSA gives pretty clear rules about uniforming, I don't see this as an area to give the boys freedom to make decisions about "how much" of the uniform to wear (outside of Activity uniforms, or hats and neckers). I see it as you are either following BSA rules and regs, or you aren't. Why do we see some BSA rules and regs as black and white (ie: advancement, leadership - PORs) but not when it comes to the uniform? The only ethical decision is do I wear the uniform correctly, or not. As has been mentioned many times before, Troops do not have the authority to change the Official uniform, other than deciding whether or not to wear hats or neckers.

 

To answer the original question, I don't think the uniform alone drives kids away. This is pretty general, but from my experiences, boys either want to be Scouts, or they don't.

[desertrat77]

 

On the way home from summer camp today, we stopped at a very crowded rest stop with shops and eateries. The scouts, including the older scouts, wore their scout shirts and mingled freely. If they were embarrassed, I didn't detect it.

 

To me, the problem is figuring out how to get them to wear the uniform more often without resorting to "thou shalt."

 

As I've stated in several posts, the day the BSA fields a functional, affordable uniform, is the day this topic becomes moot.

 

I disagree with the premise that the uniform is unpopular because of what the BSA stands for. With some folks, yes. Most of the time, the uniform is unpopular because it's expensive, looks silly, and is designed for sedentary behavior--courts of honor, standing at the flag pole, dinner at camp, power point slide shows at adult leader training.

(This message has been edited by desertrat77)

[Hal_Crawford]

"Well we have had girlfriends show up for eagle projects and courts of honor! "

 

As an aside, let me share this cautionary tail. My son's high school sweetheart helped on his Eagle project and was there at his Court of Honor. In fact, she was in every single picture of him from the COH (except the group shots that didn't turn out too well). At the time they were joined at the hip and no crow bar could pry them apart. Six months later when this great love affair came to a crashing end none of the pictures could be displayed.

 

So, take heed and get at least one good solo shot of the new Eagle unless you are adept enough to Photoshop GF out of the Eagle pictures. Time heals all wounds. Four years later ex-GF is now a friend so maybe, just maybe the Eagle pix can go back on the mantle.

 

Hal

 

 

 

 

 

[theysawyoucomin']

Hal,

I write plebeian stuff all the time. Do us both a favor and kindly hit "ignore this user".

 

Lisa,

 

"All of the boys and adults in my son's troop show up to pretty much everything in full uniform. Over time, it becomes ingrained that this is just how the troop functions. Older boys take on the responsibility of passing it along to the next generation of scouts who join. "

 

We too have a requirement of a full uniform for BOR. EXCEPTION: A Scout does not have to own Scout pants(new style old style etc.) during his first year with the Troop. We figure after a year a Scout knows if he wants to continue.

 

I just wish we had boys that believed enough in the program to want to be proud enough of the organization to desire to do their best to be completely uniformed.

 

We have two Troop meetings a month. The first you wear your uniform the second you wear a Troop T shirt. Not a tall order IMHO.

 

We do wear the uniform when we leave for long Trips or weeklong camp.

 

Boys really have no opportunity to wear a uniform to school. A small number used to wear them to Cub meetings right after school.

 

I want to be the SM of a unit where the Scouts want to wear a uniform.

 

Do I want mind control?

 

No.

 

I guess I just want them to run a unit where they want to be there and buy into the program. The uniform is a small but visible part of that.

 

Boomer, I am expecting the kids to make it interesting. They pretty much have carte blanche. They should know what interests them.

 

 

[mbrownkc7]

Give the uniform bit a break. About the flip flops at the eagle court, I don't think the boy getting his eagle was to concerned about another boys choice of shoes. I am sure he was happy that he came. I was his court and not yours.

 

I can care less about full uniforms. I haven't seen a pair of olive pants or shorts, let alone scout socks on any of our kids in the last few years but I believe we have a great troop. I am sure there are people out there who think we are less of a troop because we are not in complete full uniform and I laugh at this. I am looking for boys who want to get involved in a program and grow with in the program we are providing. I don't grade him on his attire.

 

So enough with the uniform talk. We have larger problems to address and goals to obtain.

[theysawyoucomin']

"I don't think the boy getting his eagle was to concerned about another boys choice of shoes. I am sure he was happy that he came. I was his court and not yours. "

 

 

 

Wow! I guess you sure set me straight.

 

You can know what a Scout is feeling all the way from KC.

 

Are you equally good a stocks and bonds and powerball numbers?