What if we just completely did away with uniforms?

[boomerscout]

Staff at summer camp and attendees at Leadership Training are super Scouts who have embraced everything; they are not typical Scouts, so really are not good examples for this forum topic.

The fault with this forum is that it is of just adults. We need a properly designed answer nuetral survey of 11 to 14 year olds to pin down what is really wrong. Otherwise, Scouting is going to become elitist.

An aside: jeans for summer camping are only $9-11 on sale (Wrangler or Rustler). As America becomes more like the Third World, due to industry leaving, the number of middle-class incomes that can afford full uniforms are going to contract.

[Eamonn]

"So, why would the same boy wear a shirt only with his Troop, but is willing to wear the full uniform at camp?"

Brent,

I don't know.

I also don't know why adults do the same thing?

Adults attending the Jambo or WB seem happy to wear the whole kit and caboodle, but weeks later are back wearing jeans of whatever.

Humans are at times strange???

Teenage boys can be really strange.

I don't know about every boy, but looking back at the one that sleeps in my house.

When he first joined the Troop he was bright eyed and bushy tailed.

While I'll bet he had never heard that much about the methods of Scouting he was aware that some things were going on.

Soon after and maybe a little before he joined the Troop he learned the Oath and Law. While maybe the thinking that these were ideals? Was a little above his head. He seemed to get the idea.

He was a member of a Patrol. I'm not sure what he felt about this? I kinda guess he just seen it as a neat way of breaking the Troop up into manageable sized teams.

He didn't see Outdoors as a method, just what Scouts did or were supposed to do.

I very much doubt if he ever gave adult association a second thought! The adults were just there, because they were there and if they hadn't been there wouldn't have been a Troop.

Personal growth was something that he knew was going on. He knew that he was growing and that his understanding of things was on the up and up.

It might have taken a while, but he did see what the leaders both adult in youth were doing. In his own way he noted what worked and what didn't, who was a good leader and who wasn't.

I'll bet that he never ever thought that he was in any way in them early days having or was undergoing any sort of leadership development.

Advancement was something that he thought he understood!

This was something that he could really sink his teeth into.

Do this and get your book signed, do some more and get a patch.

Get a patch and Mommy and Daddy are happy and proud.

Wearing a uniform? Was much like the outdoor stuff! Just something that Scouts did.

When we first bought him his tan shirt he was happy.

At that time he was still in the Pack.

That shirt put him apart from the "Little Kids". It was a sign to anyone and everyone that he was growing up.

Fast forward a few years.

He now was aware of the methods at least most of them!

But a lot of the thrill had gone.

Going to camp at the same place to do the same old same old was no longer an adventure.

He was his own person, he no longer craved approval from his parents for earning a badge. He was now doing what he wanted, when he wanted to do it. In fact when people tried to push him into doing something that he didn't want to do, he rebelled against it.

His wearing his uniform was now up to him.

He decided when he thought it was important.

While maybe he thought that wearing it to a meeting was no longer a big deal. He seemed to think that not wearing it when everyone else was wearing it was a big deal. (Yes I paid $76.00 to buy two pair of new shorts just before NOAC.)

He bought into the idea that wearing his uniform was important for the weeks he was staffing JLTC and the Jambo along with some other occasions.

But he just didn't see the point of wearing it for most everyday Troop meetings. He most certainly was not going to be seen dead in the old uniform pants at any place other than a Scouting event.

Maybe it's like dressing for the part in a play?

While rehearsing there is little point in wearing all the costumes, but on the night? It is.

Eamonn.

 

 

[BadenP]

I hate to tell you boomer but boy scouts have been elitist for at least the last two decades.

[Billy Cavalry]

Yes I realize the uniforms can be; and are, expensive. I hope my council is not the only place where a uniform bank is maintained, perhaps this idea can be taken and run with elsewhere. When a new scout joins a troop from Webelows his parents are allowed to take him to a conveniently located warehouse in my councils area and is given a wearable uniform. In the same way a scout is able to trade in one-for-one uniform for something that fits. The other accoutrements are usually taken care of by the gaining troop itself. Patches are also either obtained from the troop or the local scout council office. Perhaps the boys are being allowed to become discouraged by the fussing of a few squeaky wheel adults. I realize times are tough, money is tight, the scouting program has made it through tougher times in the past and even sooner, within my lifetime alone. (Remember the 1970s and that awful green handbook?) Pardon my sharpness but the scout uniform is supposed to separate the Boy Scouts from the remaining non-profits out there. Public opinion is leaning in a direction against scouting. Our organization is one of the remaining FEW that teaches the boys respect, dignity, self sufficiency and how to honor our nations flag. The Boy Scout uniform is unique in the way it allows the scouts to display their accomplishments. God knows these young men need encouragement when the current theme in our society is against that! The adult leaders need to encourage achievement and not be so overly concerned with what the reigning public opinion poll says. Perhaps this is the place to instigate a new forum topic! What if the Boy Scouts was just done away with? Just box the whole operation up and toss it away somewhere in some dusty museum. That is what the end result would be if momentum were to be given to the idea do away with [scout] uniforms. Supposing the uniforms would go first; then someone would complain about the boots or the backpacks, next it may be the subject matter the boys learn. With so much given away for no other reason except for inconvenience or a lack of pride it would be all to easy to give up the Scout Oath, Scout Law and our core values. Most revolutions take place slowly now-a-days. One House bill at a time, one Senate bill at a time another initiative placed onto a ballot and soon no one remembers their own heritage. I may not be the only one to voice my opinion in this way but I did not take time to read the previous posts. If uniforms are shelved then rank has no meaning, (what would the scouts wear the patches on?) While we are on the subject of patches; with no uniform to place them on and no rank, what is the purpose of having the young boys learn all of the knowledge that they are exposed to during a typical scouts life? A scout that is not taught to tie knots or cook over a fire will also not learn to serve in his community or his country when he grows up. {Young boys with nothing to do usually end up making their own mischief, I dare you not to do a Wikipedia search on: The Dnepropetrovsk Maniacs Днепропетровские Маньяки} I am thankful for the adults that are still involved in scouting and especially the ones who helped me when I was young. (Yes the old timers who didnt put up with my whining.) All in all; the uniform is not to identify the scout as an individual, it is to set the boy as a significant part of a whole much larger corps. As the young boy grows to be a man he is guided by the adult leaders and mimics the actions of his peers. Finally, after a few busy years looks back at some time and recognizes there is a whole group of young boys that are following in his boot steps, he is now a leader, an example. For scouting and with the military, the uniform is not for self idealization or personal benefit it is to signify inclusion in a cohesive group and identification with members of the same philosophy.

[BadenP]

Sorry Billy but you have taken this debate to a new level of absolute and extreme absurdity.

 

The question here is quite simple, How vital to the scouting program is the uniform? and, How much of a uniform is really necessary?

 

Instead of looking at this from the myopic viewpoint of "that's the way it has always been", which by the way is not true in this instance, what would be a practical solution to this particular problem which is becoming more prevalent over the years with both youth and adults in the program. Think creatively not emotionally.

[GoldWinger]

Lah me, nine pages and umpty-squat posting on the uniform, most of which repeat the same old tired things that the same people have posted before.

 

First off, a man's suit hasn't changed that much in the past 100 years. Lapels wide then narrow. Cuffs . .. no cuffs. Vest? Today, not tomorow. Not like what teens wear today compared to 1976. Okay, a 1918 business suit might be noticable today but if they still fit, my Brooks Brothers suits from 1988 would look pretty much the same on me as my 2008 vintage BB suits. Sure, the bleeding edge of fashion changes, but most of us aren't there.

 

Uniforms and old farts? Every sport has a uniform. Sure the players on the various teams might have some input into what the uniform looks like BUT the final call is made by the old farts. Are uniforms necessary for sports? Not really. Equipment is but uniforms aren't but once we get organized, the uniforms show up. Why uniforms? It shows a sense of purpose and identity. It let's the public know who you are.

 

So the Scouting uniform is designed by old farts, just like nearly every other uniform out there worn by kids. Why do kids not want to wear it? Simple, Scouting ain't cool. It has nothing to do with the uniforms and their "dorkiness." It has to do with the idea that Scouting, in and of itself is dorky.

 

Yep, Scouting is dorky. Today, more so than ever. Being courteous and obedient is not popular in a culture so focused on doing whatevery you want. Heck, "What are you, some kind of Boy Scout?" has been an insult since it was first uttered in a 1930s movie.

 

Okay, if being a Scout isn't popular, why are so many in Scouting? Because their parents make them go. That's a big part of why they disappear after they make Eagle. The parents' goals have been met so there is no longer a need to be in Scouting.

 

Cost? Sure, it's expensive but so are those "Starter" jackets for the NFL teams and the NHL game jerseys and the Nike sneakers. Priced high school letterman's jacket recently? Makes a Scout wool jacket look cheap. Even the poorest letterman gets a jacket and wears all sort of gee-gaws and doo-dads on it.

 

Most of the parents in my son's troop had six figure incomes and lived in houses that cost nearly a half million dollars. The parents would spend drop $75 for a windbreaker for an AAU team without thinking but **** ed about the Scout uniform, cost of Scout camp and the cost of popcorn.

 

What's the difference? Sports is important because it teaches WINNING and leads to scholarships but Scouting isn't important unless it leads to Eagle which is the win.

 

So we have parents who will brag about the cost of the sports uniform and how their son couldn't play unless he had the full uniform but these same parents whine about the troop's expectation that their son wear green pants.

 

So back to why don't the Scouts want to wear their uniforms. Because they really don't want to be Scouts. They are happy to let the adults run things because they don't want to be there and they don't care. I will believe until the day that I die that most Scouts today are only in Scouting because their parents want them to be there.

 

 

[kcs_hiker]

"So back to why don't the Scouts want to wear their uniforms. Because they really don't want to be Scouts. They are happy to let the adults run things because they don't want to be there and they don't care. I will believe until the day that I die that most Scouts today are only in Scouting because their parents want them to be there."

 

sure

 

and the same can be said for school, church, etc.

 

and yet...

 

part of the responsibility of a being a parent is to make kids do things that we know are good for them. Does that make us unpopular at times? You bet! But in the end, if we do it right, our children will thank us and do the same things for their children.

[Lisabob]

"Most of the parents in my son's troop had six figure incomes and lived in houses that cost nearly a half million dollars."

 

Well aren't they fortunate. Ain't the case where I live, GW.

[GoldWinger]

"Well aren't they fortunate. Ain't the case where I live,"

 

So? The point remains that these parents who willing drop more for lunch than the cost of a pair of Scout pants will whine about the cost of the uniform. Why? Because they don't percieve that Scouting has any value, the troop doesn't emphasize it, and Little Johnny really doesn't care either.

 

I've seen frantic parents rush out to buy baseball pants for their child because little Timmy can't play without them. This on the day of the game, after they discover that the mean old umpire won't allow Timmy to play in jeans because the rules prohibit it. Zoom! They're to the store and back before "Play" is called. Ever see anyone do that for Scouting?

 

Well, that's baseball . . . that's different isn't it? Not really, you have a bunch of old farts deciding that the boys need to wear tight, knit pants to play with a black belt and that the shirt needs to be tucked in and the cap worn with the bill to the front. Can you play baseball without a uniform? Sure, in my day we did it all the time with pick-up games.

 

It isn't the dorkiness of the uniform that discourages boys from wearing it. You can't get much dorkier than tight, polyester, knit pants with socks that come up nearly to the knee. Okay, they don't wear that to school but they don't hide when their friends see them on the way home from the game.

[OldGreyEagle]

So, GW, have you been that mean ol' umpire who wouldn't let the kid play baseball in his jeans?

[GoldWinger]

Yep.

[OldGreyEagle]

Welcome back

[fleetfootedfox]

Thought I'd weigh in with my own opinion.

 

When people seem concerned that boys would not want to wear their Scout uniform to school, I say so what? Why would they? I don't wear my uniform to work, so why would I expect them to wear theirs to school? If the cubs want to wear theirs to school, more power to 'em, but they would also be just as happy wearing their power rangers pajamas to school.

 

You wear what is appropriate for the occasion. What you wear to work or school is probably different from what you wear when you are mowing the lawn or when you are going to church or when you are going out on the town. That's the way it should be.

 

In the meantime, there will be times in adulthood when they will be required to wear a uniform or conform to a dress code. I don't see anything bad about requiring them to learn that lesson now. Better they grouse and get upset over the uniform now than they get fired from a job as an adult for not dressing appropriately.

[GoldWinger]

Why would a Scout wear his uniform to schoo? Many reasons. It could be "Scout Day" in February. He could be giving a talk about his Scouting activities. It could be in support of a recruiting drive.

 

Anytime that you show up in "different" clothes at school, a boys friends are going to rag on him. Doesn't matter what it is. If he wears a suit for picture day. If he wears his new letter jacket. It dies down after a few minutes as long as he doesn't cry and run away.

 

What about the boys who don't want their friends to know that they are Scouts, uniform or not. There was a boy in my son's troop who never left his house wearing his uniform. He made life and then quit when the new Scoutmaster told him that, as an ASPL, he was expected to show up to give leadership at our community service events.

[BadenP]

So Goldwinger from your last post if that life scout quit after making ASPL, you say for community service, but what does that say about the program relating to the boys needs, its not about the uniform its more about the adult control in that troop. If we want to have scouting prosper we as an organization need to reach out to the needs of those youth and not what we adults think they need. One of Kudu's most valid points is that there is way too much adult control in todays scouting program compared to years ago and that the model used in todays leader training reinforces this.

 

The program BP envisioned was a youth oriented and youth run unit, somewhere along the way BSA leadership has lost sight of that vision, and instead has replaced it with an adult oriented and controlled program. Then we wonder why our numbers are still declining, hmm.