What if we just completely did away with uniforms?

[xlpanel]

And even if you don't buy into the "its who is in the program" idea, then the acceptance of a suit wearing kid by his peers but not a uniform wearing one would rest on one simple item:

 

Design. If uniform were designed as well as suits were, it wouldn't be a problem, that way.

 

Main thing is, you gotta make the uniform cool to get it worn outside of events. How you can do that, I don't know. You could possibly pay the NFL to outfit players in Scout uniforms next season.

 

Main thing is, you gotta show them what the uni can do, but you can't do that if they won't join. You gotta get em in, and if the uniform is in the way, it goes.

 

Reference back to extemp, the kids didn't join or attend to wear suits, they attended because they liked the program, and the natural high they get on making their opponent start crying in the middle of the round. Add that to scouts pl0x?(This message has been edited by xlpanel)

[GernBlansten]

xlpanel, if the suit had not changed in style since like 1980, your son would have the same aversion to wear as he does the ODR uniform.

Suits evolve continuously and relfect the styles and attitudes of current society. Boy scout uniform styles are 30 years old, albiet with some recent fabric changes.

[OldGreyEagle]

Just a couple of related Observations, some related to the uniform, and some not.

 

We all agree that the methods of Boy Scouts are the following:

 

Advancement

Ideals

Patrols

Outdoors

Adult Association

Personal Growth

Leadership Development

Uniform

 

And frequently we tell each other that these are the eight methods and none is more important than the other and the real goal is that the boys are enjoying the program and are we accomplishing the Mission.

 

But, lets go through the methods once again, with my observations

 

Advancement

We frequently hear wails of disappointment that an Eagle can't tie a bowline and how horrible that is and how some troops are considered Eagle Mills and some Summer Camps are Merit Badge Factories.

 

Are those who stress meeting the BSA requirements to the letter and say that no one may add or subtract from the requirements ever called the Advancement Police and told nobody should be so anal retentive as to expect any youth to actually do everything that is required? If you were known as part of the Advancement Police, would you be offended? Insulted?

 

Ideals

We sort of have a no tolerance attitude about this one. I think its safe to say no one thinks a scout who has fathered a child out of wedlock should be made Eagle. We may excuse one transgression if the scout is repentant and mends his ways, but we want to see the Ideals reflected in the scouts personal life, that is where Scout Spirit occurs.

 

Are those who stress living up to the BSA Ideals to the letter ever called the Ideals Police and told nobody should be so anal retentive as to expect any youth to actually live the Oath and Law and that to Be Prepared and Do a Good Turn Daily are more like guidelines? If you were known as part of the Ideals Police, would you be offended? Insulted?

 

Patrols

The basic unit of scouting is the Patrol. Patrols come together to form troops, troops are not separated into Patrols. Still, many adults struggle with the boy-sun, patrol system. They think the adult lead troop method is much better. One regular poster here, Stosh, is having issues being a boy run troop and an adult lead troop is siphoning off members.

 

Are those people who want to see the Patrol Method used in scouting ever called the Patrol Method Police? And told nobody should be so anal retentive as to expect any Troop to actually do the Patrol Method, 300 feet between patrol campsites et al? If you were known as part of the Patrol Method Police, would you be offended? Insulted?

 

Outdoors

There is a lot of talk about parlor scouts and Parlor Scouting and I think we are all pretty much against that. Scouting is Outing

 

Are those who stress the Outdoor method ever called the Outdoor Police?

And told nobody should be so anal retentive as to expect any Troop to actually have an Outdoor Program. If you were known as part of the Outdoor Scouting Police would you be offended? Insulted?

 

Adult Association

One of the benefits of the Merit Badge system is adult association and when troops teach merit badges as a class or have its scouts keep going to troop adults its decried as poor form. We talk about how part of the merit badge process is to have the youth contact the counselor and go to the counselor (with a buddy) outside of scouting and outside of the troop.

 

Are those who stress Adult Association, ever called the Adult Association Police? And told that told nobody should be so anal retentive as to expect any youth do this? If you were known as part of the Adult Association Police, would you be offended? Insulted?

 

Personal Growth

We expect scouts to mature, to grow as people and I dont mean height.

 

Are those who expect scouts to experience personal growth and emphasize it ever called members of the Personal Growth Police? And then be told that no one should be so anal retentive as to expect any youth to actually experience personal growth? If you were known as part of the Personal Growth Police, would you be offended? Insulted?

 

Leadership Development

We expect out scouts to develop Leadership. Well. Ok, at the very least to perform adequately in their Positions of Responsibility.

 

Are those who expect a scout to do his job competently ever called Leadership development Police and told no one should be so anal retentive as to expect any youth to actually experience leadership Development? To actually fulfill the requirements of the Position of Responsibility? If you were known as part of the Leadership Development Police, would you be offended? Insulted?

 

Uniform

 

Apparently we have already pretty much done away with the uniform; it is a vestigial organ of times past. Units that use it are continuing a fine tradition. Units that dont, well, they dont

 

[BrentAllen]

Hal,

I didn't say or ask you to disparage the Scout out of uniform - I asked if you thought they had the same character. One takes the time and effort to be in uniform, the other doesn't. Does one have even slightly more character than the other?

 

If no neckers means no character, then that includes us. The Troop hasn't voted to wear them - yet. I've shown them the really nice Scout hat I received as a gift from the 1st Bergvliet Sea Scouts in Cape Town, SA, customized with my name embroidered across the back. We are working on coming up with a custom hat, with the names on them. If we get those, the boys might vote for a matching necker. I have a feeling if they do vote on one, it will only be for COHs, Scout Sunday and other formal events.

 

See BadenP, if I was forcing Uniforming on the Troop, they would be wearing neckers and hats. That isn't the case. Yes, I'm trying to persuade them, but no luck yet.

[Hal_Crawford]

Brent:

Again, I don't think one shows more character than the other.

 

I lost interest in trying to convince our PLC to consider neckers when I realized that the contemporary ones are too small to be used as a triangle bandage. It seems that over the years the BSA has moved steadily away from anything practical for an outdoor organization. The new uniform is a small move in the right direction.

 

Hal

[GernBlansten]

Good point OGE.

All units put varying emphasis on individual methods.

What amazes me is that some consider those scouts from units who don't subscribe to another units rigidity to a method makes that scout deficient in character and ethics.

 

I really couldn't care if Brent's unit is perfectly uniformed, but I do resent that he thinks all the scouts in my district are unethical and lack character.

[xlpanel]

If suits change in style to remain cool, it only seems smart that the scout uniform should take the same tactic to help promote people to join.

[highcountry]

My last post on this as Brent clearly doen't get it.

 

2 Boys, one showing to be a PROBLEM (Negative non scout behavior) the Other leading and teaching others (A postive behavior we want more of in out Units). You have stated they are both paricipating equally. That illustrates you absolutely don't get it. You give an equal rating to unequal behavior and you go straight to the uniform which is a minor, nearly unimportant factor.

 

You certainly have your priorities in order (NOT)

[BrentAllen]

Gern,

I must have done a bad job in communicating, because I never meant to say your Scouts or your district has no ethics or character. To me, character is NOT a "yes or no" issue, meaning you either fully have it or you don't. I see character as being measured across a broad spectrum. And across that spectrum, I see Scouts who take the time and effort to wear the complete, correct uniform as having more character than those that don't. I make no apologies for holding that opinion. I see it as an issue of both respect for the organization and those who came before us, and one of character. You are free to disagree.

 

Hal,

I agree on the current neckerchiefs. I was also given one of the neckerchiefs from the Sea Scouts in South Africa. It is great! Nice big size, very nice material, including a ribbon stitched in along the edge. That description doesn't do it justice. If you go here http://www.bergvliet.entry.co.za/ and go under photos, and then under Best Scouting Pictures, you will see a photo of the unit in full uniform with neckers. Another photo of one of their Scouters is here http://www.kontiki.za.org/2001pics/2001mealzx.jpg If the Troop votes in favor of them, we will most likely have them custom made, similar in size to the one from South Africa.

[BrentAllen]

highcountry,

Are you being intentionally difficult?

 

You posted: 2 Boys, one showing to be a PROBLEM (Negative non scout behavior) the Other leading and teaching others (A postive behavior we want more of in out Units). You have stated they are both paricipating equally.

 

I never said "one showing to be a PROBLEM (Negative non scout behavior)" Take that out of the equation.

 

BOTH boys are leading and teaching others, BOTH are acting in a Scout-like manner, the ONLY difference is in what they wore to the meeting. Get it? NO difference in behaviour. I don't know how I can make this any clearer!

 

I give up...

[xlpanel]

BrentAllen, you have a horrible judge of character if you believe that wearing a certain item of clothing changes how you act.

 

If that was the case, AND THERE WAS ANY RESEARCH, to back that opinion up, wouldn't everyone at school be forced to wear suits or boy scout uniforms, "as they will be much better behaved and have better character"?

 

Clothes do not make a person what he is. If you get a criminal and dress him in a suit, he is still a criminal. If you get a boy scout and dress him in Aero clothes, he is still a boyscout.

[Eagle92]

X,

Actually research has shown that dress codes and/or uniforms DO improve performance in schools, and that is why 99.99999% of private schools in my home town of New Orleans have them, and more and more public schools are going to uniforms

 

And if you look at some of the early scout histories, alot of school officals pushed for scouting to supplement and improve their scholastic knowledge.

 

As for neckers, yep the Supply Division ones are worthless. Gotta go custom, or get European ones. I'll wear my BSA ones, but I love my European ones more, except for my old troop's custom necker.

[OldGreyEagle]

well actually, that people behave differently in uniforms is the reason the public schools in the south Florida Hollywood area require school uniforms

 

Uniforms work, well school uniforms do, I am not so sure that the BSA has issues with its uniform as much as it has with its image. Back in the 60's Cub Scouts promised "to be square" even though years before then even the venerable Maynard G Krebs thought to be square was worse than "werk" (said with a hushed tremor of course)

 

I was in the Roman Catholic Seminary in 1967-1970, that wasn't easy, going to school to be a priest? And an Eagle Boy Scout? I was a social leper, but enough about me

 

In the greatest movie ever made, "Follow Me boys", even Whitey first says of the scouts " I don't want to go along with no daisy pickin' momma's boys" and that notion has stuck.

 

If Boy Scouts were known to be doing exciting things, the uniform thing would disappear. But the question is, are we committed to offering a program that would entice youth to participate even if the pink tights and tutu's were required?

[xlpanel]

A January 2007 study released by Youngstown State University deemed that academic performance did not increase due to uniform use.

 

The same article also lists some benefits of uniforms:

 

1. Decreases conflict over clothing

2. Decreases clothes with innapropriate sayings

3. Decreases clothes-displinary rate

4. Helps to detect intruders

 

Well, if kids argue over clothing on campouts, you are not running a good enough program.

Next, if kids wear innapropriate clothes on campouts, you have to enforce that is not ok

True to standard, if kids cannot wear shirts that are agaisnt the rules, you do not have to punish them, and discipline rates go down

Finally, who wants to sneak into a boy scout camp?

 

This seems to do nothing to promote character

 

Here is the link to that article, but you have to have an Academic Search Complete Account which costs money to view the fulltext.

http://kidd.blinn.edu:2056/ehost/pdf?vid=2&hid=104&sid=e3b666c1-d7e3-4901-8c77-bb7f16740bd9%40sessionmgr108

 

 

Next article mainly states that the only reason we need uniforms in schools are so people won't be offended by statements they don't agree with. You don't get to ban everything that offends you by any means. Doesn't boy scouts teach the scouts to respect others' views?

 

Article can be viewed here

 

http://kidd.blinn.edu:2056/ehost/pdf?vid=2&hid=104&sid=706d2e59-c386-41c5-abc1-d4fd2f0e66dc%40sessionmgr102

 

Again, subscription required.

 

Finally, one last point on the use of uniforms. It is what a society does to remove uniqueness from the individual. You cannot hide the fact that one kid is rich, and another is poor. But if you are running a good model for the kids and REALLY teaching them character, they can easily look past this and only see the person.

 

 

[Eagle92]

X,

Thanks for the heads up on the research against uniforms. I'll go back and try to find the research the local school board used to make their decision. I may have access to some of the journals, gotta love the power of the internet.