What if we just completely did away with uniforms?

[highcountry]

I find it somewhat amusing at these types of threads where the Uniform Police are the ones getting upset that other units aren't anal and hardcore about uniforming. Seems the units that don't put uniforming as a high prioity seem to be less bothered and probably busy having fun from the posts I have witnessed.

As I stated elsewhere when I took over there was no use of any part of the uniform, we have gotten much better, but not nearly perfect. I don't let it upset me and I don't nag the patrol leaders and scouts. If it bugs some Uniform Cop who is not even a memebr of my troop, it's their worry, not mine.

I see zero point in wearing uniforms in the car for the hour trip to a local troop campout only to take them off when we arrive. If a kid shows in his class A with combed hair, his shirt tucked in, great. If he wears a necker, great. If he goes beyond that excellent, but I see no difference oin behavior between the guys in Jeans and Clas A's and the guys in 100% full unifor. My main thisng, is are they having fun, are they active with the troop and are they learning, advancing and taking in the things scouts is teaching them to develop into good young men.

I have a growing troop and very good activity and meeting participation, excellent advancement record and great retention of adults and scouts, even recruiting is going well. I have picked up a few scouts who left other area troops because they are far to ana about a number of rules, uniforming being one. Those kids have turned out to be model scouts. No way am I going to take a hard line on uniforms (or religion or other touchy issues) as I KONOW I will run off a few good scouts and adults.....where is the value in that ?

Times have changed, in the fifties it was cool to wear a scout uniform to school or in town, that is no longer the case. Yes athletic teams demand full uniform, and kids do it no only becuse it is expected but because it is considered COOL. Scout uniforms are Considered Dorky. I get that and realistically I am not going to change those dynamics in society, so I don't try to be a butthead and I am flexible. I feel a troop functioning as well as mine has been is the main thing, I am blessed to have the troop going so well, I am not going to risk that by being a hardliner on something that really does not matter no matter who said what many decades ago.

 

[GernBlansten]

Brent,

I feel the uniform method can be executed and kept faithful to GBB with a much less rigid uniform guide. Similar to the GSA or other scouting organizations where the vest has replaced the entire wardrobe. I'm not saying a vest, but some relaxed standard.

 

The current complete uniform is just too much bling and ceremonial to be practical. And there are folk who consider those who don't wear the full complete uniform to be scouts lacking character.

[Eagle92]

Gern,

I was one of those scouts who was too poor for a brand new uniform. I wore hand me downs and thrift store store stuff. No one could tell the difference. It was an equalizer in my troop.

 

In reference to advancement, the Field or Official uniform, I'm an old fogey who remembers those termsto describe the ODL, the only place to consistently display advancement, PORs, etc is the uniform.

 

I will concede that the ODL shirts were not meant for outdoor activities. But troop t-shirt, scout pants, shorts/pant, socks, etc were worn on all activities with my troop.

 

And while you are correct that Scouting's ideal need to come from the heart, the uniform is a visible reminder to follow our oath and law. Further elements of the uniform, like the neckerchief, has a hundred and one uses. Also it is a visible reminder of the world wide brotherhood of scouting.

 

As for uniforming and service, I can testify first hand that the uniform gives some authority to young men, who would otherwise be ignored by some adults, in emergency situation. My OA chapter is resposnible for one of the Red Cross shelters during emergencies. Folks know coming in that the Scouts are part of the staff, they have a job to do, and listen to them I've seen other teenagers helping out, some even wearing an ARC t-shirt, who were helping out be ignored by folks in the shelter. But when one of the Scouts in uniform says the same thing, the folks listen.

 

I disagree in the value of thrift, perseverance, ownership, and good grooming. I saved up to get my uniforms, and it did teach me values of savings, decision making, and setting goals. Also when I purchased the uniform, IT WAS MINE { caps for emphasis, not shouting}. Also I wanted to look good in that uniform, and made darn sure that I sewed those patches on correctly, wore the uniform correctly and I instilled pride in my patrol members.

 

It sounds as if you either have a young unit, a unit that has no uniform culture, or a unit that has lost their uniform culture. I hope that from the units expereicnes, the youth decide to get that uniforming culture. there is nothing like seeing a fully uniformed troop, going out and doign Scouting, except maybe goign to a jambo and seeing 50K+ scouts in full uniform.

[BrentAllen]

highcountry,

I couldn't give a rat's behind about the uniforming in your Troop. That is up to you, though I do agree with B-P about a Troop's uniforming and it's SM.

 

If you think all we do is worry about uniforming and don't have any fun, you are greatly mistaken. We started two years ago (September, 07) with 6 boys, and are now up to 25. We had 22 go to Summer Camp and earn over 70 Merit Badges, go on two whitewater rafting trips, and had 4 boys earn the Mile Swim. The three boys who didn't go to camp - one was in Germany on a school program, one was in India on a family trip, and the other was visiting his dad in Maryland (divorced parents). Lack of participation is not an issue for us.

 

This year, we went on a 4 day, 3 night canoe trip in the Okefenokee Swamp, backpacking on the Appalachian Trail, caving in northwest Georgia, horseback riding in Tennessee, rifle shooting at my gun club, attended the district camporee, whitewater rafting and went through a 3-day Northern Tier prep trip. The older boys have nearly 30 nights camping over the last 12 months, including Summer Camp, NYLT and OA Ordeal. We are headed to Northern Tier for a 10-day trip later this month. I'll stack our boys' adventure up with any Troop's.

 

We wear our uniform shirts on all trips. If we stop at a rest stop, we look like a Scout Troop. It is easy to spot the boys in a crowd and locate them. This becomes habit and we don't have problems with "I didn't know if we were supposed to wear them on this trip." Consistency is a key to achieving good uniforming.

 

While I could care less about your uniforming, the question still remains - how come some Troops can achieve good uniforming, while others can't? That is the question we should be answering and discussing.

[Hal_Crawford]

"So you have two Scouts, both know what the official uniform is, both know the policy. One is dressed in the complete correct uniform, the other is wearing just the Scout shirt, blue jeans, white socks, no belt. In your opinion, do both of these boys have the same degree of character?"

 

I don't know, Brent. What are the two scouts doing at the moment? If the one in full uniform is sitting in the back of the room making snide comments while the one in jeans and tee-shirt is teaching a couple of new scouts how to pack their packs for their first camp out then I would say that the one in uniform is showing a lack of character and the one out of uniform is being a good scout. Note that cost had nothing to do with this. It's not the wrapping it's what's inside.

 

Hal

 

[BrentAllen]

Hal,

They are both doing the same thing - attending a weekly Troop meeting, learning a new skill, participating in a Patrol meeting, playing a game. The only difference is what they are wearing.

[xlpanel]

Remember, this thread is not about "repeat what some high-ranking BSA guy said about uniforms". That is all very well to say about current enforcement, but that is not the purpose of the thread. The thread is to discuss these, not repeat them.

 

And I will take a shot at the green whatever

 

 

Once again, I'll defer to Green Bar Bill:

The Values of the Scout Uniform

 

1. The Scout Uniform gives the boy a true sense of BELONGING. It submerges his self and makes him group conscious of his Patrol, his Troop, and the Boy Scout Movement. ------ Also, the uniform gives him a sense of UNBELONGING. It distances his self and makes him self conscious when with other Friends, School, and other ogranizations.

 

2. It provides for true DEMOCRACY. With all boys in Uniform, the external differences between poor boys and rich boys disappear. ------- The whole idea of "Forced Uniform Wear" without letting the wearers of said uniform have any say is laughable when claimed ot support democracy. As the difference between poor and rich close, the difference between cool and uncool deepen. What rich boy is gonna want to dress the same as a poor boy and lose coolness as a bonus?

 

3. It continuously and persistently brings to the boy's mind the SCOUT IDEALS for which the Uniform stands and reminds him that he has promised to do his best. ------- If all the uniform does is remind the boy about Scouting, surely just a wristband that said "Do Your Best" would suffice. If every scouter wore a cool wristband, and the band really was cool, kids would wear it to school. I think that if the boy is on a SCOUTING trip, he should surely remember scouting, even if he is not in uniform.

 

4. It adds to the boy's ENJOYMENT of Scouting. The very design of the Uniform makes it possible for him to play the game strenuously, the way boys want to play. ------- This one is again laughable. The boys have clothes that allow them to enjoy strenuous activities such as Underarmor and other tight fabrics. The uniform is loose haning and traps moisture, which leads to scouts NOT being able to enjoy whatever they are doing outside. And uniforms cannot hold up to strenuous activity. Try rock climbing in one? First, the sleeves are not built right for full arm movement above head. Try playing tagging games such as football, a wrongly placed hand can rip off 2 or three buttons very quickly, and this is from experience.

 

5. It encourages ADVANCEMENT. A boy seeing Badges and Insignia blossoming forth upon the Uniform of a chum or member of his Patrol will want to earn them for himself. ------- If the only motivation for a scout wanting a new rank badge is that Timmy has one now, he is in scouts for the wrong reasons. Welcome to Meet the Joneses 2.0

 

6. It gives added opportunity for SERVICE. The Scout in Uniform is chosen for civic service projects before the Scout without one, because the Uniform itself adds to the boy's effectiveness in performing many services. ------ Well, self explanitory. We should all drop uniforms, so the lazy scout that does not wear one will not be allowed to sit and watch those wearing uniforms work. I can't think of any meaningful civil service projects I would do in a uniform anyway. I would not make a trail or any physical work, as that is a great way to ruin your expensive shirt.

 

7. Earning the money with which to secure the Scout Uniform teaches a boy the invaluable lessons of THRIFT and PERSEVERANCE. -------- It also teachers the boy that money is not really his. He has to spend his money he earned through his THRIFT and PERSEVERANCE the way someone else wants him too, just to please that person. Is that a good lesson after all?

 

8. The ultimate acquisition of the Uniform establishes in a boy the feeling and sense of worthy OWNERSHIP, and encourages neatness and GOOD GROOMING. ------- Wouldn't the boy feel worthy of owning anything he owned? If the boy doesn't value other articles of clothing besides his scout uniform, that is messed up. And now wearing a special shirt and pants promotes good grooming? It seems to me that the boy going out in public would be enough to promote that. If that is not enough, then a shirt is not gonna change anything.

Green Bar Bill, Scoutmaster Handbook

 

 

 

The Whole Complete uniform is a racket. To make money. The scouts do not need $50 dollar special pants. Do having the right PANTS make a scout have character? Who determines that pants give character? Is there any studies, or is this blind speculation that costs everyone lots of money? Pants a racket. No one would buy them if not mandated for NYLT or anything, so they mandate them to get people to buy. Then you still see only half the kids there in official pants. The ones without offical pants still learn, correct?

 

Also, the new uniform is even worse than the old one in terms of marketability. Scouts have asked me, when they were getting a new uniform, if it would be possible for them to obtain a larger version of the old one, than one of new design. The Scout Pants have a fundamental flaw when being marketed to youth. The ZIP OFFS zip off WAY above the knee. That ruins the design for 95% of youth.

 

If they just had the old uniform, removed half the patches and readjusted things slightly to make it less obtrusive and dressy, allowed jeans or shorts with no official socks more kids would join.

 

What makes a program? The people in the program, or the clothes that those people wear?

 

 

On a final note, BSA now does sell boxers. Possibly a sign of things to come?

[highcountry]

Hal,

They are both doing the same thing - attending a weekly Troop meeting, learning a new skill, participating in a Patrol meeting, playing a game. The only difference is what they are wearing.

 

Are you saying their actions are equal but the use of uniform is more important than actions ?

 

One is showing character and doing the things we try to teach and develop, the other is doing the kind of things we try to discourage, but based on your response, that is of no matter, the uniform is more important ? Is your priority to get after the kid without the uniform and see no value in his demostrating good scouting and then congratulate the uniformed kid who is not being a good scout....?

 

 

I'm glad you are doing well with your troop and although you say you could care less about MY troop and our uniforming practice, you do demonstrate a fair amount of concern, energy, emotion and opinion about what other troops in general do regarding how strict they are in uniform.

 

 

 

[GernBlansten]

Brent, you say you don't care about other units uniforming, but then in the next statement you denegrate a scout's (and his SM's) character because of it.

 

Perhaps this is just regional. In my district, there are ZERO complete uniformed units. At least at camporees (where we intermigle with other units.) We have run across a FEW at summer camp, but easily 90% are as laxed as ours (shirt only). This probably says more about our culture out here in the rocky mountains. We don't dress up for church or work either. We are a bunch of mavericks. With no character!

[Eagle92]

One other thing about being fully uniformed, you get opportunities for PR. I was at one council camp, in full uniform for a flag lowering with the entire camp in full uniform (it was the Brownsea 22 course I took) and some photographers were there taking pictures. I took no notice of it. But a few months later I'm getting calls from my brother in CA and grandparent in TN saying they saw me in a UW commercial representing the BSA (My have times changed). And that was wearing hand-me downs and thrift store threads

 

Another incident happened with the 1996 Superbowl. I was at one of the pre-game events wearing my Exploring uniform. The DSS went around, picked a fully uniformed TC (orange shirts and hats at the time), 2 CSs, a BS, and me to take pics with some of the players. I was also asked to be part of the color guard at the game, unfortunately I turned that down to be at GFs party. And if you look at those picks, all of the scouts were fully uniformed, and selected from units that have a uniforming culture. grant you the green shirt was new ( Summer camp post and used staff discount), but the green pants were my old thrift store threads.

 

Now my CS pack doesn't have the uniforming culture, yet at least We have not been asked to do a any special events, but another unit with that has a uniforming culture (they also happen to be the oldest pack in the council chartered along with the oldest troop), has been asked to special events becasue the do have the uniforming culture. Both packs have great programs, both are very active, but the uniformed one does get a few choice jobs.

 

As for my son, I know he will never be a poster child 'cause he doesn't wear the most current uniform, but he is fully uniformed with my old slide and cap. When asked abotu the old cap and slide, he proudly says "they were my daddy's"

[BadenP]

Brent,

 

You and a few others have proven my point, that it is the ADULTS who push for the "full uniform" and not the boys WANTING to be in full uniform. I am not saying no uniform but rather a much more practical and better looking one. Take the new centennial shirt for example, the plastic glue on cheap looking BSA strip and American flag is an insult and laughable representation of what the BSA should be about, not to mention those absolutely ridiculous billow pockets. Wait until the next world jamboree where the rest of the world scouts will have a good laugh at our boys expense. In addition the material feels cheap and uncomfortable, and the BSA paid some moron some big bucks to come up with this pathetic excuse for a shirt, made in China no less, without ever asking the people who wear them what they would have liked to see and wear. By the way this is typical SOP for Mazzuca even when he was my SE at the council where I was a DE, I could tell you stories believe me.

 

So the question remains is it the uniform or the program that makes the boy a TRUE scout, the answer is rather obvious even to the most obtuse thinker.

[xlpanel]

The coolness of a scout troop is not decided by the scouting program (mainly), but by who is in the unit.

 

If you get the right kid, you can immediately have 5 or 6 more cool members join.

 

For example, we got the right kid in in our troop who has an inside pulse on the other kids at school, he was able to defuse fears, and suddenly you have many others showing up, too, such as:

 

The guy that has 75% of the girls in his freshman class chasing him all the time. Girls ask this guy to go out with them before they even know his name

 

Things snowballed from there, and this guy now has our whole football team secondary in scouts.

 

 

 

How did it happen? We didn't lure the scouts with the uniform. It was never mentioned. The kids just talked about funny things other kids have done and what adventures they had and it worked.

 

So we obviously need to recruit cool popular guys, and the only way I see that happening is by not forcing the uniform on them. If not wearing full uniform could increase attendance by 50% would you do it?

 

Also, for $50 for a pair of pants, buy the kids something the really like. You can get two aeropostale jeans for that price.

[BrentAllen]

highcountry,

You are really having difficulty with this, and it isn't that hard. Two Scouts, both participating in the same program, both doing the same thing, both well-behaved, involved in the program. One is wearing the complete correct uniform, the other is wearing only his Scout shirt with jeans. The only difference between the boys is what they have chosen to wear to the Troop meeting. Both boys know what the complete correct uniform is (they read it in their Scout Handbook, pg 12), both know the BSA policy. Do they both have the same character - moral and ethical strength? One chooses to follow the rules and regs of the BSA, the other chooses to ignore them. What is the 7th point of the Scout Law?

 

In case you haven't noticed, this is a forum for posting opinions. The question here is about uniforms. I chose to participate and express my opinions here. Outside of the cyber world, I never say anything to another unit about their uniforming. I never send a boy home or don't allow him to participate if he is out of uniform. Our PLC pushed the uniforming, and the boys push each other. They want to earn the quarterly Honor Patrol award, and the prize that goes with it. They get compliments on their uniforming, and they buy into the concept.

 

Once the culture is in place, it takes care of itself. It is just like any other habit - it will be a good habit, or a bad one.

 

Gern,

I attend our contemporary service at church - very casual here, as well. I wear a suite probably 5 days a year (white collar job). I don't think our cultures are that different. If you were true mavericks, your unit would go full uniform. Sounds to me like you are part of the herd out there.

[xlpanel]

Brent Allen, I have an intereting point about wearing a suit to discuss with you.

 

My Son will wear a suit AT SCHOOL, in front of his peers, at least 6 times a year, as need be for various academic "presentation" competitions against students from many others schools, all across the state.

 

Bring in the coolness factor here again. He gives 50 minute presentations where 4/5 of what he says is extemporary relating to what happens in the competition. And he totally kicks ass at it. Other students clamor at competitions to get to watch him. And not to make fun of him, either. He has told me before that sometimes everyone who is not doing anything at the academic meet will come watch him. He and another student have totally brougt this academic event up from nothing to one of the top 10 in the state. It has gone from, in the beginning, the school having trouble justifying traveling 300 miles for two students, to now, the school having a waiting list for students that want to travel with the extemp team just to watch them, as there is not enough transportation room.

 

He has no qualms or worry about doing that.

 

However, he will never wear a scout uniform to school.

 

The simple explanation for the two comparisons above is that extemp is percieved as "cool" but scouts is percieved as "uncool". Why is that? Extemp dresses up way more than scouts, and they do it in front of their peers, too.

 

This whole thing references back to my earlier point, it is not what you do, but who does it.

 

And if you have to get rid of uniforms to get the "who does it" kids in scouts then so be it. If doing so can increase attendance and excitement level, why not?

 

Finally, why does my son have no qualms about wearing suits in front of peers, but does about wearing the uniform?

[Hal_Crawford]

Sorry Brent, we're gonna have to agree to disagree on this one. If both scouts are otherwise identical in activity and demeanor, I would not use the lack of uniform to disparage the scouts character, morality or ethics.

 

For all I know the one in uniform, angered by being told that his Totin'chip patch is not for uniform wear, is thinking about ways to chop the other scouts into small pieces.

 

Is a troop that votes not to wear neckers demonstrating less character than one that does? They are within the rules and regs but are they sliding into a deep moral abyss? I hope not because my troop is certainly in peril. (Note on the dangers of spell check, I misspelled abyss and it almost corrected to abbess-now that completely changes the meaning)

 

 

Hal