What if we just completely did away with uniforms?

[Eagle92]

Gern,

I know I'm an old fogey, but with my troop as a youth ( mid 80s- early 90s), the uniform decisions were left up to the PLC, and enfoced by the PLC. Yes we made allowances for new scouts, and we did accept substitute green pants. Also in referecne to socks we accepted black socks with the pants only, as they were usually covered up by the legs anyway. But if you were in shorts, you better have the official scout socks as they were visible.

 

We did have pride, and the youth leaders created that culture of unforming. It was the PLC that sent home scouts who showed up for a trip without their uniform, the SM played no role in that decision except to support the PLC. At summer camp, the PLC enforced the uniform standards at dinner, not he the leaders.

 

So the answer is yes a 13YO will decide on the full uniform if he has been given the reasosn for it and sees his peers and youth leadersw earing it with pride.

 

As for being treated differently wearing the uniform, that is a definate yes. People are nicer, more polite, and will start up conversations abotu their scouting expereinces, and that has happened to me all over the world.

 

The ONLY time I ever had a problem with the scout uniform was going through immigration and customs in the UK. They went over me with a fine tooth comb. And the reason for that was that a Japanese citizen posed as a Japanese scout leader to avoid intense scrutiny in order to smuggle drugs about a month or so earlier than my trip.

[Kahuna]

Interesting discussion. Maybe it's not "the uniform" but this uniform? I haven't found problems in getting Sea Scouts to wear that uniform. There is, however, an ongoing problem with getting adults to get over themselves about wearing it.

 

Just a thought.

[Beavah]

You act differently because you are uniformed. People treat you differently because you are uniformed.

 

Yah, dat's true, eh?

 

In the kids' lives, they act differently. Among non-scout peers, they hide.

 

People treat 'em differently too. They make fun of 'em.

 

I suppose that you can argue that wearing clothes that make you the object of ridicule is character-building, but I don't see it as a great recruiting technique.

 

It's certainly true that within a troop it's possible, with da right adults, to develop a culture of uniformin', and pride in the uniform. It just won't carry over to their life outside da troop.

 

I'm also not really sure that the sports uniform analogy is apt. Around here, boys mostly shed their uniforms as soon as practice or a game is done. And I don't know many sports uniforms that are all ornamented with patches and gewgaws.

 

I am sure that da uniform does not act as an "equalizer." As someone mentioned, at its current cost it separates out lower-income kids who can't afford it (or can't afford new, properly fitted stuff).

 

I'm a fan of da uniform as an adult. I like the look, at least when it's worn by kids (I think overweight bespangled adults look a bit foolish). I think it teaches somethin' about ceremony and discipline. I think if it's worn, it should be worn correctly. I hate seein' blue jeans with a uniform shirt. Just a pet peeve. I can't say I really care much about da socks, though.

 

Yah, then I listen to da kids, eh? When I listen to them, I conclude that it's just an adult thing. We'd be better off with a major makeover, more along the lines of a range of BSA-branded adventure clothing. I confess I think it would be really cool if what identified 'em as scouts was something that they'd happily wear in school or on their way to/from soccer practice. I reckon that's a better choice than lookin' spiffy to the over-50 crowd watchin' a parade.

 

Beavah

 

[BrentAllen]

Reality check here, Beavah. We have discussed ad nauseum the fact that Scouting isn't cool, as determined by the self-appointed deciders of coolness. Changing the uniform isn't going to change that fact. Chasing a "cool uniform" is about as productive as a snipe hunt.

 

It takes character to be in Scouting - as a youth, you are most likely going to get ridiculed at some point in your Scouting career. If a youth is active in his religious organization, he will probably get ridiculed for that as well. Do we let those self-appointed deciders of coolness determine what we are going to do with our lives? Hopefully not. It takes character to be in Scouting. It takes even more character to wear the uniform correctly. Just my humble opinion, of course.

[desertrat77]

Beavah,

 

Good thoughts...I'd also like to take another stab at the sports uniform theory.

 

The football uniform identifies the kid as someone who has taken on an athletic challenge and that he's a competitor.

 

Now back to the scout uniform. What does it say to the non-scout?

 

It sure doesn't say that the wearer has taken on a challenge, like football. Irony in that it's the challenging outdoor activities that draw most scouts.

 

Frankly, our uniform hasn't communicated "outdoors" since the early seventies.

 

So non-scouts draw their own conclusions.

 

If we wore uniforms that were no-kidding outdoor clothing, suitable for rock climbing, hiking thru brambles and the like, our uniform woes would be over.

 

Our scouts are proud of their outdoor adventures. They want uniforms that tell the world that story.

 

I get the feeling National tried to do that with the new uniform.

 

Beavah, I concur with the overweight bespangled adult observation.

 

[GernBlansten]

Well if standing up to ridicule is a sign of character, then if we replaced the uniform with a Shriner's fez and pink tutu, we'd really have character. Or be ones.

 

I think the sports uniform analogy really doesn't fit. A sports uniform is functional for the sport, has no bling based on status. But is a bit of pride. A football player might wear one to school (at least the jersey, never the complete uniform), especially on game day.

 

But how about the marching band uniform analogy. In a group of others, they are sufferable, but caught alone, you stick out like a sore thumb. They are used only for performances. You'd rather be dead than caught in one by your non-marching band friends away from your other marching band buds. You'd never wear it to anything but a performance and then only during that performance.

 

Actually, Beavah's got the right angle. If the Official BSA uniform weren't so cartoonish and rigid, down to the socks, we wouldn't be arguing it. Seems other world scouting organizations have relaxed it, with some success.

[desertrat77]

We are all salesmen/women for the BSA movement. Scouts and scouters alike.

 

What message does our uniform "sell?"

 

 

 

 

[desertrat77]

...and I know of no law, creed, or rule that says if you stand for good character, you have to dress like a frump.

[Eagle92]

Yes I admit I like the red toped knee socks, but it was for the practical value of protecting your legs while in shorts. Remember that there are two colors for official socks now, both of which are better in appearance than the old one. You have the all green ones with BSA stitches into the top, I've actually worn these with some dress pants for work, and the grey and green hiking socks with BSA stamped on the foot, where no one can see and since it's stamped comes off after 2-3 washes.

 

Now only if they made them knee high!

[SR540Beaver]

I always get a kick out of all the hand-wringing over uniforms. It is my firm personal belief that getting rid of the uniform wouldn't change a thing in our membership numbers. Scouting would still be geeky just as marching band and church attendance would be. You join scouting because the program sounds fun. You don't avoid joining because there is a uniform involved. Was I self concious when I suited up as an adult after dropping out as a Webelos in 1967? Sure. Did it last long? No. Why? Because I go places where hundreds and sometimes thousands of people are proudly dressed the same as me. I'll stop and pump gas or go into a grocery store to grab a gallon of milk or stop by Wal-mart in my unifrom. If people want to snicker at me, that is their small minded perogative. I'm serving my community, are they? The same mentality eventually takes hold in the boys if they are in a troop with a culture of uniforming. My 16 year old son went thru the uniform willy-nilly's duing 7th and 8th grade. By 9th grade, he was a proud scout and could care less about peer pressure and whether people thought it was cool or not. While his peers spent the summer in the house playing video games or on the sidewalk skateboarding, he had already been to a National Jamboree at 12 and Northern Tier at 13, plus summer camps, shooting rifles and shotguns, rock climbing, rapelling, etc. In fact, many of his peers would accuse him of lying when he told them how he spent his summer. If anything, he started thinking that the folks calling him a loser were the real losers and that is when he quit caring about what they thought of him, scouting and wearing a uniform. He'll wear it anywhere now and doesn't care if he gets looks, stares or snickering. He is spending his second summer staffing camp and staffing NYLT and therefore spends a large part of his summer IN uniform. When it comes to socks, he and his staffing buddies go the full monty........nothing but old school knee socks for them. They wear them like a badge of honor. not only can you tell a staffer at a distance by their staff shirt and hat, you can tell by the socks. That is THEIR choice......and they will actually waer them on their weekend trip home and walk into restaurants with them. Imagine?

 

But I guess they could wear their regular heavy metal band t-shirts and holey jeans and be more comfortable blending in looking like the non-scouts. Lord knows we don't want them to be considered "different" in any way.

[GernBlansten]

Some people will join because of the uniform, others will join in spite of the uniform and still others are ambivalent to it. Count me in the later two groups depending my mood.

But I do chuckle at those who judge a book by its cover.

[BrentAllen]

"But I do chuckle at those who judge a book by its cover."

 

Would that include those who automatically assume a Troop with correct uniforming has it forced on them by the adults?

[GernBlansten]

I have a dream that scouts will one day have a troop where they will not be judged by the completeness of their uniform but by the content of their character.

 

Yes Brent, I find myself chuckling at myself at times too.

[Lisabob]

Just thought I'd mention this. I'm traveling this week. Stopped at a laundromat to do the wash and while I was there, in came some adults who were clearly scouters. We struck up a conversation - they were doing a mid-week laundry run of troop T shirts for their guys who are at a nearby scout camp.

 

How did I know they were scouters? Not by the official scout shirt (nary a one in sight), nor by the official scout socks, troop neckers, or troop hats (also absent). Nope, it was the scout T shirts combined with the scout pants (mostly the switchback style) that gave them away. Even though they weren't in full uniform, it was clear who they were. We had a nice conversation about their troop and the camp they're attending. Sounds like they have a good program in spite of their obvious failure to properly use the uniform method (said tongue in cheek!).

 

Sometimes I think we here on this forum get hung up on the details and miss the big picture.

[SR540Beaver]

Lisa,

 

No doubt true. Of course, the uniform and knowing when and how to wear it is part of that overall big picture. There is a time and place for everything. Doing summer camp laundry isn't one of those times in my book.