What if we just completely did away with uniforms?

[Sephrina]

There isn't an overwhelming rush of girls joining girl scouts and all you need to wear to be considered in uniform is a couple of pins.

 

You might hang on to a few, but still won't reach the masses without uniforms.

 

Karen

[GernBlansten]

So now uniform = character.

Well, #1 son, Eagle scout. Veteran of the triple crown (Philmont, Seabase, Ntiers). NYLT graduate. NYLT staff. JASM of the troop. He escorted a Congressional Medal of Honor recipient during the annual convention as an Eagle scout last year in Denver. Thinks adults put too much emphasis on the uniform. Doesn't like it. Brent thinks he lacks character. I report, you decide. Is Eagle son character void?

[Lisabob]

Just a thought: Scouting is a world wide movement, yet I believe that in many countries, "uniform" consists of a necker. Do they have less character than American scouts? Really?

 

Here in the states -

 

My son would probably still wear the switch backs. He would probably burn the shirt with joy.

 

In the last 2 years I've been amazed to see how happily he wears the newer style pants. They look good, they're functional, they can be worn to non-scout events with a T shirt and not look dorky. They're expensive (honestly, at $50, they are the most expensive pair of pants he owns by a long shot). But at least he wears them.

 

Make a functional shirt without all the doo-dads and maybe kids would wear that happily too.

 

The move to the belt that's built in to the scout pants and doesn't look dorky was also good. My son seriously disliked the old style belt, just another reason for him to not want to wear the old style uniform pants/shorts.

 

Get rid of the socks. Seriously. I know some folks will try, but the correlation between socks and character is even more tenuous than between uniforming in general, and character.

 

 

[Eagle92]

I've seen some scout associations do away with pants, except for the leaders and older scouts. While it may have worked for some groups, it didn't work for all. I can see jeans with a shirt, but purple sweat pants!

 

I personally like the uniform and do want it to go away. But I would love it if cost could be cut. After all my wife found a pair of nearly identical zip off pants made by the same company as the current BSA pants at Walmart,a nd they were already hemmed at a fraction of the cost. And $50 for a shirt is kind of high for me, I lucked out and bought it just before the price went up with some bonus money from work.

 

Why do I like the uniform. Some of it is egalitarian and some selfish. The uniform is an equilizer, it doesn't matter if it is used, new, or vintage. Heck we got one guy who actually promotes wearing vintage uniforms and some of the scouts love it. The uniform does promote esprit de corps, especially in those units with a uniforming mentality enforced by the youth and not the leaders. We took pride in our uniforms and troop. The uniform also tells someone that they are a scout, and to a fellow scout or scouter, what that individual has done.

 

As for me personally, I've come to the realization after being with the new pack I'm in that I have a lot of "bling," especially after sewing on the patches on the new shirt. But I like the fact that people ask me about this patch or this necker, or this knot, and I can talk about some of the great opportunities Scotuign has provided me, and that await them or their son.

[BadenP]

This is an endless debate that can go on forever, the only way to settle it is to take a group from each part of the country and have them experiment with no uniforms for a year and lets see what happens to their numbers. If the program offered is solid and fun nothing should change, except maybe an increase in numbers, but we will never know since National would never sanction the experiment. All anyone can offer than is their opinion which has no empirical evidence to support it.

[GernBlansten]

You know, when going through the checklist of for NYLT staff, my son commented that the shirt and pants where OK. But getting all anal about the socks just put him into a tizzy. WHO CARES ABOUT YOUR SOCKS? was his exclaimation. Next is gonna be your underwear! I just had to chuckle. He went on about how the adults at NYLT training camp went on and on about everyone having their socks was critical.

Socks = character.

 

Go figure. PS, I agree with my son.

[nolesrule]

For more formal attire (business, suits, uniforms), socks should be similar in color to the pants. For casual attire, socks should be similar to the shirt. White socks are for athletic clothes with tennis shoes.

 

Therefore, the socks should be a dark shade of green. Anyone who complains about that doesn't know how to dress properly.

 

Whether or not you should absolutely require BSA-issued socks is a different subject.

[resqman]

Adult males are often heard whinning about wearing neckties and suits. Expensive, unconfortable, not very practical, expensive to maintain, etc. Suits and ties have been the coroporate uniform for centuries. Most people who whin about suits and ties are wearing the wrong size. If they would buy a shirt with the correct collar size or buy new shirts when they gain weight, their clothes would be comfortable. I wore ties daily for 25 years. No complaints from me.

 

Wear a suit to a gas station. Get out, pump some gas, and walk into the quicky mart. The way you will be treated is different from the way you would be treated if you were wearing a T-shirt and jeans. You feel different about yourself. You are dressed because you have something you must do. Be a corporate weanie, attend a funeral, wedding, or other formal event. Others treat you with deference because you are dressed differntly.

 

A scout uniform is very similar. You act differently because you are uniformed. People treat you differently because you are uniformed. The general public does not know what all the patches mean but recognize the uniform. They treat you differently because your are the face of the Boy Scouts of America. They often will greet you and ask about your most recent scouting adventure or reminence about their time as a scout. Doing away with the uniform would remove an important part of being a scout.

 

As a boy, I sewed the patches on my uniform. My mother washed and ironed my clothes but I was proud to put on my uniform. I made sure it was worn correctly. The brass end of the belt would be just visible beyond the buckle. The patches in the correct location. The neckercheif neatly rolled. And when wearing the knee high socks, the tabs on the garter were exposed equally on both legs and were centered on the side of my legs. Before velcro took over the world, I sewed snaps on my OA flap so it could be removed prior to washing to keep it better condition.

 

When meeting other scouts, I can learn a great deal about their experience as a scouter by their uniform. It often provides a place to start conversations. Just as the numbers on football uniforms indicate the players position, the patches on the uniform indicate the scouts position.

 

I wear the complete uniform at all scout functions. I hike, camp, attend meetings, COH, and all manner of outdoor activites in full uniform. I have been wearing the same scout pants and shirt for 7 years. Den meetings, pack meetings, troop meetings, trainings, outdoor activities, etc. One small tear in the shirt from reaching into my vehicle and it caught on something. No holes in the knees of the pants. $100 for approximatly 350 washings and wearings and still going. How well did the MegaMart look-a-likes hold up?

 

Do the scouts in my troop respond to me differently because I wear the uniform? Yes, they are more likely to wear their uniform. Just this week some of the newer scouts asked about the knots on my shirt. The other knots may not mean much to them but the AOL and the Eagle knot are something they understand.

[GernBlansten]

Yeah, who would wear blue socks with green pants? What a fashion tragedy. Definitely shows a lack of character.

[nolesrule]

Dressing appropriately says something about your character. That includes the color of your socks.

 

It has nothing to do with fashion trends and styles. That's bellbottoms vs. boot-cut. Narrow vs. wide tie. etc., ad nauseum.

[BrentAllen]

So Gern, was your son wearing his uniform when he staffed NYLT? Was he wearing his uniform for his ECOH? Was he wearing his uniform when he escorted the Medal of Honor recipient? I bet he was. I'd say he has the character the BSA is looking for.

 

Lisa - the Scouts of other countries wear the uniform of their country. I have no problem with that. Wear the uniform of your country, and wear it correctly. Those countries probably have disgruntled Scouters saying, "If only they'd get rid of the necker, we'd have a lot more Scouts...."

 

Socks. Are we really crying about socks? One of the dad's in our Pack was in Scouting in England. He tells about having to polish his shoes, have his uniform pressed, brass polished. Cry me a river over the socks....

[GernBlansten]

Yes, Brent. He was wearing his uniform. A complete uniform, down to the socks. But because the adults demanded it. Not because he wanted to. Nor did his peers. They conform because they are told to conform, by adults. They view conforming to the will of the adults as a necessary step to achieve what they really want. Adventure, self determination and freedom of will. Remember, socks = character!

 

Here's a test, just for once, allow your PLC to set the dress code. Don't influence them with all the WB babble about how the uniform = character. Let them decide. All on their own. Do you think any group of self directed 13 year olds will choose to wear our dorky uniform in its complete state?

[desertrat77]

The scouts will wear a uniform they are proud of.

 

Most kids have no problem wearing a football uniform and the like. They'll wear it to get a hamburger after the game. Not ashamed in the least.

 

The problem would be solved if National fielded a uniform that actually looked good. And was functional in the field.

 

Sorry, this new uniform looks dumpy. Silk screen flag? Doesn't Old Glory deserve better? Bellows pockets on the shirt? Are you kidding? Can't speak to functionality, haven't bought one.

 

The ODL uniform isn't much better. It's perfectly designed for sitting in the camp mess hall watching power point briefings. Or conducting a candle light ceremony at the court of honor. Little else.

 

There are off the rack shirt and pants--designed for the outdoors, and stylish--that scouts could sew some badges on, and would be worn with pride.

 

Any time a uniform is designed by committee, you get something that ain't quite right. (I'm in the Air Force, and if there are any fellow Airmen out there, you are well aware of same problems with our PT gear!)

 

I'm all for full uniforming. But if it's tacky, flimsy and expensive, you'll get plenty of push back.

 

In the military, folks have to wear the uniforms mandated...it's the law. Scouts? They can vote with their feet.

 

If scouts wore, say, Columbia shirt and pants, do you think we'd have the pushback we've got now?

[BrentAllen]

Gern,

I don't give them any "WB babble" about uniforming. I do point out the differences between a correctly uniformed Troop and one that isn't whenever possible, like at flags at Summer Camp or Camporee. The boys see a big difference. The SPL takes it upon himself to remind boys to tuck in shirts. The PLs take it upon themselves to push their patrols to be in correct uniform. Our SPL and all PLs attended NYLT this summer, and came back believing even more in the full uniform. We have high esprit de corps right now.

 

Our Troop was the only one singing cadences on the way to and from flags at Summer Camp (other than staff). I never taught them any, and I never asked them to do it. The older boys learned them at NYLT and introduced them to the Troop. They were also the only Troop cooking in camp, and I let them know it. Again, this is totally their decision. One of our new Scouts went to the Dining Hall with the other boys to make sandwhiches for the river trip the next day. He came back and told me he was so glad we were cooking in camp. He didn't want any part of that crowded Dining Hall which smelled heavily of Clorox (disinfecting for swine flu). The boys are very much in charge of our Troop.

 

I did suggest to our SPL that the Troop go to our Activity (Class B) uniform for the summer. He discussed it with the PLC and they agreed. The boys have all been showing up in their Troop t-shirts, Scout shorts, belts, and yes, even Scout socks. The boys police themselves and I don't say a thing about uniforms at meetings. They do know they need to be in full uniform for a BOR. BTW, we include having their Scout Book with them to be considered in full uniform. We added this to the program after having several boys show up for BORs without their books. One of our committee members is a senior Scouter with over 30 years as an SM, and he won't conduct the BOR if they don't have their book. I agree completely with him, so we discussed the problem at PLC and came up with a solution.

[OldGreyEagle]

Just to be clear to those who may wish to attend Wood Badge in the future, I did Wood Badge, admittedly long ago, 2001, so it was the wrong Wood Badge for some but I do not remember anyone saying Charactor = Uniform or anything like that at that time