What if we just completely did away with uniforms?

[f_cbb]

New here, and a HS Student, but I just had to say that I have never been bothered at public school when I got my letterman and wore it first, or even when I had to wear a suit to school for some things.

 

And here is my take on uniforms. The only reason I wore a suit was for a speaking competition to IMPRESS the judges. Also, the other guy would be in one too, so I would automatically not look as good as him from the beginning if I didn't. Kinda you have to match what your competitor is doing to stay on equal grounds to start off with as much as possible.

 

Now, uniforms the same way. I would only wear it to impress someone that would be impressed. But with boy scouts, its not a competition. You don't need equal footing to fight to the prize, you all want to get the prize as a group and bring everyone along.

 

I believe that if you aren't impressing people you are watching with your actions, knowledge and dedication, a uniform isn't gonna help you much in scouts. A scout who can tie all his knots but doesn't wear a uniform is gonna be held higher than one who has a perfect uniform but can't do anything to save his life. A scout that shows up to all the service projects with no uniform will impress the organization the projects are for much more than the scout who has a perfect uniform but does not show.

 

I wouldn't dream of wearing my uniform to school, as that does not make a good impression. Impressions are made through actions. The guy playing football with the dirty ripped jersey and the scratched up helmet who makes the winning TD will be respected alot more than the guy who sits on the sidelines in a perfect uniform. Impress through your actions, as looks will only take you so far. You can look great in your scout uniform when your plane crashes in the wilderness, but thats not gonna do you any good. You can't say "Star Scout power activate" and press your badge, spin in a circle, and a nice camp is built up for you. You have to have the skills. If you have the skills, you will always do better than the guy who doesn't no matter what you are wearing.

[Lisabob]

Well said!

[GoldWinger]

"Now, uniforms the same way. I would only wear it to impress someone that would be impressed."

 

So when you played your sports to get that letterman's jacket, you didn't wear a uniform or did you and whom were you attempting to impress?

[GoldWinger]

"So Goldwinger from your last post if that life scout quit after making ASPL, you say for community service, but what does that say about the program relating to the boys needs, its not about the uniform its more about the adult control in that troop."

 

I'm not following you. He didn't quit because he was expected to do community service, he quit because he was expected to be seen in public as a member of BSA doing the troop projects around the town.

 

What adult control? The SM tells a member of the troop leadership that he needs to step up and do his job. Gee, elsewhen on this forum, folks are whining that the SM needs to tell a "leader" when he isn't doing his job.

 

 

[BrentAllen]

"A scout who can tie all his knots but doesn't wear a uniform is gonna be held higher than one who has a perfect uniform but can't do anything to save his life. A scout that shows up to all the service projects with no uniform will impress the organization the projects are for much more than the scout who has a perfect uniform but does not show."

 

I didn't realize that Scout skills and uniforming were mutually exclusive, or that service and uniforming were mutually exclusive.

[f_cbb]

The whole purpose of my football gear seems quite simple ... without it I pose a safety hazard to myself and the other players. Plus, my Jersey, the actual "uniform" is 'stickied' to my pads which helps me break away from grabbing tackles.

 

This uniform obviously will give me an advantage over someone not wearing one at gametime. As in, someone not wearing one would probably be leaving in the ambulance sometime in the first quarter. Also, someone wearing a loose t-shirt would be easily dragged down from a grabbing tackle while I wouldn't be as they cant grab my jersey as it is stickied.

 

The uniform makes me better at my sport.

 

The BSA uniform doesn't do that. If we call 'survival using wilderness skills' the BSA sport, there is no way the uniform helps. It does not magically light fires for me, it doesn't find me food or keep me from poison ivy.

 

I could survive in the wilderness just as easy in my football gear, a t-shirt, underarmor, or anything else.

 

How about service projects? That BSA uniform doesn't hammer the nails in for me, while my football gear allows me to hammer the ball with my helmet and force a fumble. There is obviously benefit there. Now, if the BSA uniform would make me a much better worker on service projects, I would see a benefit. I can accomplish the same amount of work no matter what I am wearing, so long as I have free range of movement. The organization the service project is for is not gonna worry about who is wearing a uni to work. They are just happy they are getting free work done. The scout who works, no matter what he is wearing, is gonna be regarded better than the scout who doesn't work but dresses perfectly.

 

Same can be said for football I guess, too. We had a guy who lost a helmet in a pile, but still recovered the fumble and rumbled 40 yard for a TD. He wasn't dressed right for the activity, but he got the job done. The crowd even cheered for him, even though he wasn't dressed up spiffy. I guess the guy who gets the job done gets the cheers no matter how he looks.

 

Brent Allen, I am not understanding about the mutually exclusive part. I see that mutually exclusive means that both cannot be true, but I don't see how your writing "I didn't realize that Scout skills and uniforming were mutually exclusive, or that service and uniforming were mutually exclusive." makes any sense to me. Maybe you could explain it better?

 

And on what you say, if I understand if, which I think I don't but I will try anyway I think it goes kinda like this. I agree with you that someone could wear a perfect uniform and be a great outdoorsman and save everyone heroically. And I think that you don't even have to be in scouts to be a great outdoorsman, if that is what you are getting at. And people in uniforms can do great service.

 

However, my point is, if you are in a situation that you actually need the skills you were supposedly learning, how you look while you are doing them is nothing. If I wasn't a scout and was lost in the wilderness with two other scouts, one who wore a perfect uniform, and one who didn't have one, I would listen and hang with the one who knew what he was doing. Again, in that situation, I would respect the guy who could tie the bowline to get me up in the rescue chopper, even if he was naked, than the guy who wore his full uniform and tied me a 'bowline' that turned into a slipknot halfway up to the chopper.

 

Now i think I know what you are getting at. Which would I pick out of a guy wearing a uniform who knew what he was doing and a guy without uni who knew what he was doing.

 

This is an interesting question. Relating back to football, if we were playing it in the park a pickup game, and someone showed up in pads and a jersey, I would think they were pushy and a poser.

 

Now, scouts in the same situation. If i was gonna be lost in the wildy with one of two guys, I wouldn't care how they were dressed, I'm not gonna be admiring their clothes in a survival situation. If it was for any amount of time, and they both had the same skills, I would stay with the guy who was more fun to be with.

 

And if fore some reason I decided to go with the one in the uniform, he would know through his scouting values that he wears that he should include everyone, and all three of us would stay together anyways.

 

That is how it would work anyway, if three people were lost.

 

If there was only two, I don't care what he looks like, I;m not gonan be checking him out. I just want someone who will help us get out of the wildy, not someone who soaps the inside of cooking pots.

 

And if you ask if I would rather be lost in the wildy with a uni wearer or non uni wearer, my answer is that I would rather not be lost at all. And if I was, I wouldn't care who I was lost with, really, whoever helps us get found the most.

 

 

If this is related back to a campout, I would rather camp with the guy who can put up the tent with me in 5 mins, cook without burning the food, and be better in what activity we do, no matter what it is.

 

In a football game or capture the flag on a campout, I would want the next fastest burner on my team, or the guy who can catch.

 

I don't care in football if we have a guy in uni that can't catch the ball if we have someone who can catch it every time without it. Guess who I want on my team?

 

Capture the flag, I would rather have a guy who stays to his assignment who wears a T than a uni guy who does whatever he wants.

 

Really, the attitude of the kid is more important than the clothes. I don't hang with friends because how they dress, but what they are like, or their skills.

 

If I needed my car fixed, I wouldn't care who fixed it, as lng as it got fixed for a reasonable price. And I bet the car repairshop without spiffy uniforms can do it alot cheaper than the one with mechanics wearing suits.

 

I look for the skills in a person. As long as they wear some sort of clothes we r good 2 go.

 

Relating back to friends' dress, I remember hours of conversation with them from staying up with them countless nights. I remember the funny or true things they have said. I have experienced where new friends finally start to open up to you, and you go from being able to discuss nothing, to anything, without any consequences.

 

Also I notice that people from school, no matter if they are wearing a 'team shirt' or not they still are the same person. Our powerlifters do not gain 50 lbs of lift just by putting on a shirt. He is still just as good, no matter how he dresses. If in a contest he beats out a guy who is wearing a professional power lifting uniform while wearing ath shorts and a ua shirt, he still wins. Guess who I would rather have lift the steel beam off my leg if the school collapsed?

 

During all of this, I have no rememberance of what clothes they were wearing, or I was wearing. Shows you what things are built of...

 

(This message has been edited by f_cbb)

[GoldWinger]

"The uniform makes me better at my sport."

 

Wait a sec. . . you said that you'd only wear a uniform to impress people. Now you're saying that wearing the uniform to make you better at your sport. Which is it? If it is only to make you better at your sport, you could have worn any color jersey that fit the "sticky" bill. However, I'm willing to bet that you wore a jersey and pants and helmet that were remarkably similar to your teammates. Why?

 

You mentioned your letterman's jacket. That too is a uniform so you must only be wearing that because it somehow makes you better at something or because it impresses someone important. Which is it?

 

 

[f_cbb]

Actually, I believe I said I wore a uniform 'suit' to impress people (aka arbitrary judges). One could say it makes me better at competitive speaking as it impresses the judge, and leans him to voting in my favor.

 

I could have worn any color jersey ... If I wanted the all the fans in the stands to wonder WHY I did that. Also, When a QB has three seconds to take a snap and make three reads, and throw the ball, he doesn't have time to remember that there is one guy in a diff jersey. It is so we can find each other quickly in a game of inches.

 

You can say that unis make the scouts IDable too, but a T with "Troop 123" on it is just as good for that. Also, does it matter if you can ID 5 Scouts in 2 seconds in a group of 22 people? Football is a game of inches .... in which the players are covering ground at up to 3000 inches a second. When the QB is 1" away from getting his arm swatted down while throwing, he doesn't have time to remember for a fraction of a second I am in a different uni. When you think that someone is running at you at 350 inches a second (4.5 40, my time) the time you save him from having to recognize someone in a different uni (2/10 of a second) is just enough to get the ball out an inch before the defender is in the way ( 1/350 of a second or .003 of a second (try to do that with a stopwatch)). That obivously is the difference between a last second TD and a winn or a loss.

 

However, there is no loss in a service project in scouts. Everyone wins. Everyone performs the same, no matter what they wear. In a game that is won or lost by a single inch (4th & Goal with 3" to go), where the players travel at 350 inches every second, being able to find team mates in a split second is important. However, in scouts, does it matter if it takes you an extra 3 seconds to see them? If someone is in danger and needs immediate knowledge of something, you tell them, no matter if they are a scout or not. If it is not immediate, you can wait 4 seconds to find a scout. Again, in danger, you warn them, no matter what they belong to, or how they dress.

 

And you set this up for the with the letter jacket. It does impress someone. The Girls. Ultimate win? Sorry, you just set that one up for me to respond like that.

 

 

As that is the case, maybe if the BSA designed a lettermanesque scout jacket, instead of a uni, everyone would join up? Note to national: do that. LOL JK.(This message has been edited by f_cbb)

[GoldWinger]

"Actually, I believe I said I wore a uniform 'suit' to impress people (aka arbitrary judges)."

 

Nah, what you said was . . .

 

"Now, uniforms the same way. I would only wear it to impress someone that would be impressed."

 

"I could have worn any color jersey ... I"

 

Once again, nah. You wore a jersey and helmet of a color and decoration similar to that of your teammates because the rules say that you must. That's the way it works in organized sports, you wear a uniform because you must.

 

"in which the players are covering ground at up to 3000 inches a second"

 

Wow! Dem be fast players. 3,000 inches per second, that works out to . . . 250 feet per second. That would give you a 40 yard dash time of less than one second.

 

"And you set this up for the with the letter jacket. It does impress someone. The Girls. Ultimate win?"

 

Hmmmm . . . it didn't work too well for you, did it? Instead of being out with a girl, you're spending your evening on line with a bunch of middle aged men. Now, that's what I call dorky.

(This message has been edited by Goldwinger)

[f_cbb]

"I would only wear it to impress someone that would be impressed"

 

Yes, but I was reffering to the impressing of arbitrary judges. If wearing a suit for speaking events will give me a better chance of winning than not, I will do it. Obviously it impress them or something.

 

However, in a nonarbitrary sport, such as football, I don't need to impress the refs. My uniform there is for my safety and gives me better performance.

 

Of course I could not wear any color jersey, silly. I hope you didn't actually believe that. Coach would send me home and make me run hills if I tried to wear a wrong jersey. However, let us look at the logic behind WHY teams wear the same jersey. Recognition. THE QB needs to be able to find one of the 5 WRS out of 22 people in under 3 seconds and throw a perfect ball. He doesn't have time to remember what everyone is wearing. That is WHY teams wear the same jersey.

 

Scouts, however, there is no situation in which that occurs. Scout leaders do not need to be able to pick out 5 of their scouts in under three seconds and give something to one of them. Our scoutmaster is lucky if he doesn't call someone by the wrong name talking to them face to face.

 

And I did mess up with the 3000 in/sec. I blame that mess up on the fact that I was not wearing my math uniform, as my math uniform would have made me get that right. However, if you read my whole post, you would have saw I also put 350 in/sec somewhere else. I know it is work for you, and I apoligize for not wearing my math jacket, but people generally assume, when two different measuers are given for the same thing, they generally take the most reasonable one. This pointing out of mistakes does not nullify my point at all. Again, I am sorry as I was not wearing my math jersey when I did that.

 

And just FYI, I do not call my GF. I TEXT her. Which basically means that I send her a message, kinda like on this forum, but it arrives on her phone. She can send me messages the same way, too. While I was typing this response I sent out two txts to people. I even texted my GF and told her about you . Wednesday night really isn't a popular one for going out ya know.... if you ever did.

 

And I agree I have been talking to some dorky middle aged men here. And if you admit that, please do not try to argue football rules with me.

 

[sarcasm]Also, you are giving me a favorable impression of scout leaders who want me to wear uniforms. Personalyl attack me and my gf, my knowledge of football, and laugh at my mistakes, even though they see I corrected it later on in the post[/sarcasm]

 

And then people wonder why scouting participation is declining. Your answer.

[BadenP]

Gold Winger still up to your old ways of reading what you want to read and then trying to pick a fight, that got old fast last time and I hope we don't have to go through that cr*p again. Try reading f-chbb's post again for the overall message instead of taking lines out of context.

[GoldWinger]

BP, quite honestly, I don't care what you think about much of anything.

 

 

[OldGreyEagle]

f_cbb at some point you have to learn not to feed the machine

 

GoldWinger, you must be proud, you have confused a youth

 

Are we going to do this all over again?

[kcs_hiker]

"A scout who can tie all his knots but doesn't wear a uniform is gonna be held higher than one who has a perfect uniform but can't do anything to save his life. A scout that shows up to all the service projects with no uniform will impress the organization the projects are for much more than the scout who has a perfect uniform but does not show."

 

and the scout who can tie all his knots and always shows for service projects in a clean neat uniform will impress most of all.

 

And the thing is... a scout who does those things won't think twice about wearing a proper uniform, so the argument is moot.

[kcs_hiker]

f_cbb, please don't judge all of us by the actions of a few. One of the requisites for being an adult scout leader is that you must like kids. Unfortunately, many grumpy old men don't. As a high school teacher I see the same problem, too many teachers really just don't like kids, spend all their time complaining, and then wonder why they hate their jobs.

 

On the other hand, once you recognize that, learning to ignore those guys is part of the maturing process. As you can observe, even the most 'mature' among us still have trouble with that occasionally.