Mixing Boy Scout and Venturing Uniform Parts

[BadenP]

Now who is picking a fight?

 

OGE if a crew does pick the official venturing uniform as an option then they are subject to the same uniform code as cubs and boy scouts. That is why most crews do not use the official uniform, it is more of a headache then it is worth

 

emb021 I know what I was told and your argument is basically faulty and illogical and it is obvious you do not like to be told that you are wrong about anything, so lighten up already.

I too hate the official venturing pants and purchase them elsewhere. There is a crew in my council that wears black jeans with the venturing shirt who recently did the opening flag ceremony at a council function, the SE, Council Commish,as well as district reps were all present and no one said a thing to them about being out of uniform, instead they were complimented about what an excellent job they had done. So you see the whole issue is moot because nobody really cares one way or the other.

[shortridge]

BadenP,

 

Do the folks from National with whom you've spoken have an explanation for why both the Venturing Leader Manual and the Venturer Handbook do not include the word "Venturing" to identify the shorts and pants as official uniform pieces? I'm not trying to pick a fight, but am just really curious. It seems to be a very large discrepancy.

 

mmhardy wrote: "... if your going to try to dress down a 20 year old going into his Junior year in college who has been living on Ramen Noodles and Big Gulps your going to get a response like, "you buy them I'll wear them.""

 

In my experience, when you take a job at summer camp, the uniform policies are explained ahead of time, so the staff knows exactly what they're getting into. Staff members also often get discounts on uniform parts.

 

As a practical matter, I hope that ScoutmasterBradley's uniform group is able to come up with its policy before staff interviews, so that can be communicated to all prospective staffers. A pair of green Switchbacks for any Venturers who don't have them could set them back $40 (Switchbacks, assuming no discount). That was almost half a week's pay my first year as a paid staffer. And though that was back in the Olden Days of 1995, I doubt base pay has changed a whole heck of a lot.

[BadenP]

Shortridge the answer I got was, "when the books talk about the official venturing shirt and then the pants, shorts etc., it is implied that these too are to be the official uniform pieces." When I mentioned that this was not clearly stated in either book the reply was, "it really should not be that confusing if your crew is going to wear the official venturing uniform then all the parts should be official down to the belt and socks." So you see my confusion even though I hate the idea I have to go with National as the final authority.

 

In the real world of scouting however no one really seems to care one way or another so emb021 can do what he does with his crew, and I have to agree $60 venturing pants are just way overpriced and impractical for a crew member.

[John-in-KC]

shortridge,

 

You were paid $80 a week 14 years ago? All but one of our operations starts off 16 year olds in first year employment at $35 a week...

 

Most college student Scouters serving Camp Staffs are, in my experience, 3d or 4th year folk who already have their inventory of summer uniforms.

[shortridge]

Oh, heck, did I do the math wrong? Hang on...

 

Ah, yeah, I screwed up. Sorry. If my memory still holds true, I got about $400 my first summer. Divided by 8 weeks, that's $50 a week.

 

Those of us who'd been CITs got a little extra our first year on paid staff. I think (hope) that's still the case.

[ScoutmasterBradley]

Thanks again, for all the great feedback here.

 

I understand that Venturing crews can devise their own uniforms - they can use the official grey shorts, or they can simply use other grey slacks, or they could opt to do something completly different for their uniform pants - that's their right as a crew and is part of the Venturing program. Venturing crews have freedom with what they can wear, however do they have the freedom to use parts from other BSA uniforms however they want?

 

What is the stance/policy on wearing BSA uniform parts in ways they weren't intended to be used? Can a Venture crew opt to use official BSA uniform parts (Cub Scout, Boy Scout, or Venturing) however they see fit? Is it appropriate for them to use Boy Scout shorts or socks outside a full Boy Scout uniform. I was always told that the uniform should be treated as a unit and worn in its entirety - you shouldn't misuse the uniform (I recall some BSA litature saying that you shouldn't even wear a uniform cap with other clothing or wear the uniform shirt with blue jeans). So in reguards to mixing Boy Scout and Venturing uniform parts, while it may be okay under the Venturing rules to wear any pants or socks you want, is it misusing (or just being disrespectful towards) the Boy Scout uniform and program to use parts of their uniform?

 

I would think that wearing Boy Scout shorts and socks with a Venturing shirt (i.e. wearing Boy Scout shorts and socks, but not as part of a full Boy Scout uniform) would be wrong. Is this correct?

[gwd-scouter]

Our Council summer camp staff are all registered in Venturing - Crew #1. Until last year, the uniform was the green Venturing shirt, and Boy Scout uniform parts for all the rest. They looked sharp. Last year it was announced that staff would be required to wear the gray shorts and socks when wearing the official uniform shirt. For what most folks here refer to as Class Bs the Boy Scout shorts and socks along with a Scout related T shirt was OK. Yeah, imagine how many guys actually changed out of their Boy Scout shorts and into the Venturing shorts for dinner assembly. Most did, but some did not. Through the week we were there I saw all kinds of combinations of uniforming: olive shorts with gray socks, gray shorts with red-topped socks, etc. Assemblies looked pretty sloppy, but it is a transition and I imagine after another year or two they will all look 'uniform'.

 

Council gives a discount on uniform parts for those guys working staff, but it still gets rather expensive if a new staffer has to buy a bunch of shorts, stocks, t-shirts, etc. My sons got by for years without having to buy uniforms because we've collected so many pieces over the years. Last year they did have to get the Venturing shorts and this year both will buy a few more.

 

As a side note - be sure to try on the Venturing shorts before buying. They seem to run about a size smaller than the olive shorts.

 

 

[Beavah]

Is it appropriate for them to use Boy Scout shorts or socks outside a full Boy Scout uniform.

 

Socks? Now we're worried about socks??!

 

Golly. Da old silly red and green numbers have been around and shunned for so long that I don't reckon anyone considers socks a part of the uniform anymore. I expect anyone at National Supply would be beside themselves with joy if boys or girls chose to wear official socks with anything.

 

ScoutmasterBradley, yeh just have to decide what your goals are and then look at how far yeh can reasonably go. Is your goal with your camp staff to make clothing a really big deal? Or do yeh really have other goals in terms of quality of service and fun and such, and pushin' too hard on the clothing bit is just goin' to get in the way of those other goals?

 

And then, if yeh really think lookin' sharp, by-the-book uniforming is a really big deal, how far can yeh reasonably go? Do you have the budget to buy all the staff matchin' uniform parts from tip to tail? Do yeh have enough good staff that you can afford to lose 20 - 40% of your staff by makin' this a really big deal? Is that what yeh want when they're really workin' for illegally low wages and long hours out of love for da rest of the program?

 

Yah, our official statement is that da uniform is da uniform, from cap to sole. But we recognize that Scoutin' runs into the real world all the time. And in da real world, units and families differ quite a bit on their willingness and ability to commit a lot of resources and energy to clothing. Trust me when I say National Supply knows that they're goin' to sell a lot more shirts than pants, and plans accordingly! Most wise scouters don't make a fight or a character issue out of it, eh? They just nudge a bit to try to make it a little bit better.

 

And that's "better" in terms of more meaningful to the kids, eh? That's what we want in a uniform to do our job - more meaningful to the kids. Not necessarily more regimented for regimental adults.

 

I'm glad you're workin' on this. It's good to have camp staff in uniform. Sets the right example and helps with "meaningful" for all da rest of the units if those cool staffers wear it well. But be careful not to get too full of it, eh? Yeh can do more harm than good that way. Cool lookin' and practical. Identifiable, but with enough customization that it truly becomes "their" uniform, eh?

 

Yah, and given a choice between a Venturing Crew in Hawaiian shirts and bermuda shorts and a crew in Venturing Green and black jeans, be happy with da latter, eh? Those kids are choosin' to be publicly associated with the BSA in their clothin'. That's high praise from a teen!

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[emb021]

"I understand that Venturing crews can devise their own uniforms - they can use the official grey shorts, or they can simply use other grey slacks, or they could opt to do something completly different for their uniform pants - that's their right as a crew and is part of the Venturing program. Venturing crews have freedom with what they can wear, however do they have the freedom to use parts from other BSA uniforms however they want?"

 

Ok, the mistake you're making here is one that too many make in regards to Venturing uniforms.

 

You hear 'a crew decides their uniform' and you stop listing to the rest of the uniforming policy for Venturing. While, yes, the crew decides their uniform, there are some ADDITIONAL rules they need to understand AND FOLLOW. Its not so 'anything goes' as some think it is.

 

The recommended uniform is the green venturing shirt and charcoal gray shorts. Nothing says that they get to pick other color pants. If they could pick other colors, why even state a color?

 

The tan BSA uniform is NOT permitted for Venturers to wear. So, NO, a Venturer can NOT wear any Boy Scout uniform parts. (Cub scout parts would be silly, because they wouldn't fit).

 

Also, when they wear the green shirt, they MUST following the Insignia Guide for patch placement.

 

I quoted the full statement in an earlier post. Did you read and understand it? If not, I recommend you go read my Uniform FAQ (available at the National Venturing Cabinet site).

 

[BadenP]

emb021

I really think you are beating a dead horse, since you yourself admit that there is no complete official Venturing uniform, since your crew uses whatever style and shade of grey pants they want, your whole argument becomes moot. The fact that you consider a crew in black jeans with the venturing shirt out of uniform when your own crew can wear a greyish shade of jean and be in uniform is nonsensical. The fact of the matter is that a Venturing crew can wear any type of uniform, except boy scout, they elect to, or no uniform at all. Most crews, my own included, usually pick something they can wear anywhere, like polo shirts or sweatshirt or jacket with some sort of symbol and ID sewn on. As someone else mentioned here uniforming is NOT a method in Venturing so any debate on the issue is not relevant.

[emb021]

BadenP-

 

I would recommend you stop assuming my level of involvement in the Venturing program, as well as my level of knowledge.

 

 

[Beavah]

Yah, has anyone noticed that it's only the adults that get in these chest-thumping food fights over uniformin'? And for that matter it's really only adults who spend a lot of time an energy writin' "uniform policy"?

 

Put together, yeh have adult-driven-and-written pages of uniform policy scattered across multiple documents which few mortals can interpret effectively (includin' folks in Supply!), and which da kids honestly just roll their eyes at or ignore completely. And, to be honest, so do most adults.

 

Rightly so, I reckon, because it has so very little to do with our mission. In fact, I reckon da poor example offered by those adults who squabble over da uniform all the time really harms our mission.

 

Mrs. Beavah doesn't like it when I swear, but I swear sometimes that we need to ban all uniform documentation and burn all existin' copies. Just provide the stuff, and let the kids and units decide what they want to wear proudly to represent themselves and us. Which was of course da point in Venturing, until some adults started up with writin' "uniform policy." It's like an itch to be **smelly critters** that we just can't resist scratchin'.

 

Beavah

 

[BadenP]

Beavah, Your idea about uniforms is the best I have heard yet.

 

emb021, I don't assume, the incorrect information in your posts speaks for itself.