Mixing Boy Scout and Venturing Uniform Parts

[SR540Beaver]

SMBradley,

 

How about approaching staff uniforming the BSA way. We lead by example. Whatever the staff wears, they do so uniformly. My son staffs cub resident camp. In their case, they have a red polo with the camp logo embrodiered on it along with Boy Scout shorts and socks. That is boys and girls. When they go class A, the guys wear their scout or crew uniform and the gilrs wear their crew uniform. They also have a uniform staff hat that they always wear that makes them stand out. Whatever they wear, it needs to be uniform and worn properly. It goes a long way to making the staff look good to all who come as campers as well as setting the example.

[Beavah]

Yah, ScoutmasterBradley, have yeh looked around at what other camps are doin'? Most Camp Directors in neighboring councils are only a phone call away, and they tend to be helpful, pragmatic fellows. I wouldn't reinvent the wheel here, especially if you and the other members of your working group haven't been volunteers on camp staff recently.

 

I also would be heavily involvin' the youth, eh? There are lots of ways for you to get into trouble and do more harm than good. Remember, those young men and women work for less than minimum wage and more than legally acceptable hours in a not-particularly-comfortable environment out of love for Scouting. It's very easy for some well-intentioned folks to alienate them. Seen it happen. Seen it nearly destroy camps, because it's pretty easy for 'em to walk away.

 

What your group is doin' should be done with respect, and caution, and sensitivity. And perhaps incrementally, especially if you're expectin' 'em to buy uniform parts themselves on top of everything else.

 

Now personally, I like da camps where either all staff are registered as a crew and go green shirts, or where all staff are viewed as workin' the Boy Scouting program and are in khaki (even the young ladies b/c they're serving as paid staff in a Boy Scouting program). Seems more uniform. I don't get into fighting pants wars, at camp it's tougher than the dickens to keep a pair of official pants clean, and the kids can't afford too many multiples. Be happy with somethin' reasonable. I definitely don't get into fighting patch wars. All of your best counselors will find something special at camp which makes its way onto the uniform. Take such additions as a sign that you're doin' the camp experience right.

 

Beavah

 

 

 

[BadenP]

First emb021, you seem to be interpreting the rule for your own mindset not the factual or official one. If a crew selects the OFFICIAL venturing uniform it includes all the OFFICIAL pieces not a knockoff on the pants or socks, otherwise your logic would also include troops and packs. Call National and talk to them you will see I am correct, I have and I know what I am telling you is true.

 

Now if a crew decides on any alternate uniform, it can not include any OFFICIAL uniform parts from any scouting program, it can include anything else they want in the way of shirts and pants and hats, just not BSA uniform parts. Finally a crew has the right to select no uniform of any kind, I hope that clears it up for you SM Bradley. I too have seen at camps the mixing of parts by staff but viewed it as the problem of the camp director or the SE but it is not my place to complain cuz there are bigger things to worry about, and life is too short.(This message has been edited by BadenP)

[shortridge]

BadenP,

 

Actually, emb021 has it right.

 

You state: "If a crew selects the OFFICIAL venturing uniform it includes all the OFFICIAL pieces not a knockoff on the pants or socks, otherwise your logic would also include troops and packs. Call National and talk to them you will see I am correct, I have and I know what I am telling you is true."

 

If National intended for only the official charcoal grey pants and shorts to be part of the uniform, it would have said so.

 

In addition to emb021's quote, from the Venturer Handbook, there's this segment from the Venturing Leader Manual (p. 10):

 

"The recommended uniform is the spruce green Venturing shirt with green epaulette tabs and gray backpacking-style shorts or gray casual pants."

 

If National had intended that the shorts/pants be official, Supply Division-issue, it would have had to add just two words: "grey Venturing backpacking-style shorts or gray Venturing casual pants." That would match the description of the shirt - "the spruce green Venturing shirt."

 

Since that description is repeated in the two major Venturing publications, I don't think it's a typo.

 

I also offer up this statement from Scouting.org:

 

"The BSA offers the traditional spruce-green uniform shirt for Venturers. It is recommended that crews adopt a charcoal-gray casual pants and/or backpacking-style shorts for their uniform. However, each crew may determine what, if any, specific uniform pants or shorts they will wear based on crew activities." (http://www.scouting.org/Venturing/ProgramSupport.aspx)

 

Again, no reference to an official BSA uniform piece. The key term here, more explicitly, is "a" - as in, "a charcoal-gray casual pants..."(This message has been edited by shortridge)

[John-in-KC]

BadenP,

 

There is no way in Hades I will wear the sackcloth garbage of a pair of gray pants or shorts that BSA Supply Corporation provides. The quality, fit and finish are absolutely atrocious. They are trash.

 

Cabelas, Columbia, REI, BassPro all provide better quality, fit, and finish for less cost.

 

Our Crew wears the recommended uniform with the exception of the trousers. Belt is members option, so long as it is a Scouting belt.

 

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To ScoutmasterBradley,

 

I don't know if you're talking about Geiger Scout Reservation of the Pony Express Council BSA or not. I know they use green shorts, green socks, self-selected Scouting belt, and a Venturing shirt. I've seen the SE wear this uniform when he's on property at suppertime. It may not be Hoyle, but as I've stated elsewhere here, the National Council does not put resources into uniform; it's simply voluntary compliance.

[Eagle92]

What printing of the books? I am actually willing to bet that while it's not a typo, it's something that should have been edited out of the original 1998 text once the official short came out, and then the pants in 1999.

 

Me personally I will wear my "prototypes," especially the shorts as the are built better than the official ones. I just replaced the buttons on my shorts with scout buttons, as recommended to me by someone at the 98 NLTC. My pants didn't have buttons to replace.

 

 

 

 

 

[shortridge]

My Venturing Leader Manual is the 2006 printing; my Venturer Handbook is the 2008 printing. National had plenty of chances to correct it if that's what it intended.

 

FYI, both the official pants and shorts appear to be on their way out (for switchbacks?), as they're both marked way down to the $30 range on scoutstuff.org.

[Eagle92]

Also in reference to REI shorts, when I was looking at short prior to the offical one coming out, I went to REI to look for shorts. For whatever reason the only gray pair short I could find had elastic in them. So I went elsewhere. When the officai shorts did come out, they were identical to the ones at REI I turned down.

 

Also I remember that when I went to conclave in 2000, one of the "uniform police" I was friends with was giving me a hard time for being 'out of uniform" for wearing REI shorts with my venturing shirt and he was going to tell my scout shop manager on me I had to inform him that yes they look just like the REI shorts, but mine had the Venturing tag on them making them official

 

I actually like the oficial pants, except for the Velcro. For whatever reason the shorts have given me trouble, and I've had to hem them since they were getting raggedly.

[mmhardy]

Lol...I have to say all the chattering about OFFICIAL this and REQUIRED that on shorts kinda creeps me out.

 

I'm with Beavah, if your going to try to dress down a 20 year old going into his Junior year in college who has been living on Ramen Noodles and Big Gulps your going to get a response like, "you buy them I'll wear them." Look clean and sharp, absolutely, but they are there at camp to work and teach not provide eye candy.

 

Anyone total up what a complete uniform costs these days? I'd rather have my son spend the money on a new suit and tie for interviews.

 

IMHO the uniform is for show. I find it unsuitable for real work in the field.

[mmhardy]

A follow up.

 

From the Staff Handbook at Northern Tier.

 

NORTHERN TIER STAFF UNIFORMING POLICY

The Boy Scouts of America is a uniformed organization and wearing a uniform properly at Northern Tier is part of your job responsibility.....

 

Appropriate Uniforms

Option 1:

BSA Tan Shirt, short or long sleeve

BSA Olive Green Shorts or Pants

BSA Olive Socks with Red Top

Centennial Tan Shirt, short or long sleeve

Centennial Forest Green Convertible Pants

Centennial BSA Socks

Red Shoulder Tabs (or color of primary registration)

BSA Belt or Northern Tier Belt

Name Tag

Option 2:

BSA Venturing Shirt, short or long sleeve

BSA Venturing Shorts or Pants OR BSA Olive Shorts

BSA Gray Venturing Socks or BSA Olive Socks with Red Top

Green Shoulder Tabs

BSA Belt or Northern Tier Belt

Name Tag

 

Source

http://www.ntier.org/Resources/Brochures/2009%20Staff%20Policies.pdf

[emb021]

BadenP-

 

You seem to be trying to pick a fight, and I find that annoying.

 

FYI, I've been involved with Venturing from day one (earlier actually). I've been engaged on-line with many of the top venturing people. If ANY of them had an issue with my statements about uniforming, they could have said something. None have. And in fact, many have echoed what I said on-line when uniforming questions come up.

 

Because 'discussions' on Venturing uniforming was so frequent on-line, several years back I wrote up a Venturing Uniform FAQ, which I still keep up to date. I quoted the national documents (even citing which ones and their printing date). I then answered various questions I've seen and heard about uniforms, given the answer FROM THE DOCUMENTS. In a few cases I gave my opinion, but made it clear it was MY OPINION.

 

I have never had anyone from National have an issue with my FAQ. In fact, my FAQ has been on the USScouting Service Project site for some time. It is ALSO included at the National Venturing Youth Cabinet site as part of a page on uniforming. So while I don't interpret that as approval or endorsement of what I say, the fact that our national youth leadership don't have an issue with my FAQ would seem to indicate they agree with it.

 

(that page is here, by the way: http://www.nationalventuringyouthcabinet.org/uniform.shtml)

 

The simple fact that when I go to the National Jamboree and drop by the Venturing Mine area, and EVERYONE is wearing charcoal gray pants/shorts AND very few of them are National Supply items, I think I'm ok with my Bass Pro Shop charcoal gray shorts...

 

 

MMhardy- The Northern Tier is within their rights to set the uniforming policy of their staff. If they want to dictate the wearing of the official venturing pants/shorts, that's their right. If a summer camp wants to dictate the same to their staff registered as Venturers, they could do that as well. I really don't have an issue with it. The Florida Sea Base has a totally different staff uniform that not even a BSA uniform, FWIW.

[mmhardy]

eb021,

 

Great site. Looks like alot of work and thought went into it. The information on wearing of the Eagle knot vs. the Eagle patch was particularly helpful in our current situation. The comments on the OA flap were also helpful along with the GSA Silver award. All good information.

 

If only they chose the white web belt... ;-)

[BadenP]

First of all emb021 I stated that I agree with you about alternative pants amd shorts however when I spoke to National Venturing Division that is what I was told directly and succintly, no exceptions, now if you want to call it picking a fight your fight is not with me.

 

It does however raise the issue if you are correct, that if venturers have an option, why does supply make the pants and shorts in the first place? Secondly, if venturers have the right to alternative pants why shouldn't boy scouts and cub scouts have the same right?

Thirdly, unless your crew all get their pants from the same place you would have a myriad of design differences as well as a variety of shades of charcoal grey, not a very "uniform" uniformed crew.

 

 

[OldGreyEagle]

"Secondly, if venturers have the right to alternative pants why shouldn't boy scouts and cub scouts have the same right?"

 

perhaps because the methods of Venturing do not include the Uniform while the Uniform is a method of both Boy and Cub Scouting?

[emb021]

MMhardy-

 

Please don't give me credit for that page & site. That is all the hard work of Craig Murphy.

 

"I stated that I agree with you about alternative pants amd shorts however when I spoke to National Venturing Division that is what I was told directly and succintly, no exceptions"

 

Really? I find that hard to believe. I can ask the people who made up the old division. I find it hard they would say you HAD to get the pants/shorts from NS. They probably said you needed to get pants/shorts of charcoal gray.

 

"It does however raise the issue if you are correct, that if venturers have an option, why does supply make the pants and shorts in the first place?"

 

Simple. To give them a source for them, and a source of revenue for NS. I know when we started out, it was hard to find a decent source for charcoal gray pants/shorts. I was lucky to find a nice pair from Royal Robbins, but they soon dropped that color. LLBean was the source 'semi-official' source for charcoal gray pants (the early pictures of uniformed venturers, that's what they are wearing), but, they too, dropped that color/style. Many of us soon found that Cabela's & Bass Pro Shop were a good source, and so many of us gravited to that.

 

"Secondly, if venturers have the right to alternative pants why shouldn't boy scouts and cub scouts have the same right?"

 

Because Venturing is not cub scouts or boy scouts!

 

From day one, both cub scouts & boy scouts have had a set uniform that all must get.

 

With Venturing, crews can decide their own uniform (a legacy from Exploring). The spruce green shirt is a choice. And as part of that, they didn't mandate from day one that you had to get the pants from NS. Just the right color. Sadly, many crews don't even honor that.

 

Heck, with Venturing it was about a year before NS came out with pants/shorts. Longer for socks. Not sure when belts and hats came out. I've been hearing for several years that zip offs were coming Real Soon Now. If we had to wait for the official stuff, we'd be in big trouble.

 

"Thirdly, unless your crew all get their pants from the same place you would have a myriad of design differences as well as a variety of shades of charcoal grey, not a very "uniform" uniformed crew."

 

So what???

 

How is that different from a troop that may have different style pants/shorts due to the changing of styles over the years? Or that have scouts in shorts, long pants, and zip offs, which are all a little different. Doesn't sound much different from some scout leaders who wanted to ban their troop from getting the zip offs because they would look different from the current pants/shorts. (and, yes, there were some SM who wanted to do just that...)