Tucked In

[emb021]

While is a great idea to have the boys been in charge of the boys, etc, sometimes it doesn't work.

 

You will encounter boys who just will not listen to what the youth leadership says. I encountered this while a SPL, and had a boy who didn't feel he needed to do what the youth leaders (PL & SPL) told him. this is because his parents (his dad really) had drilled it into him that he doesn't have to do anything another kid tells him. This attitude totally undermined what we were trying to do.

 

I have to wonder that the whole 'won't tuck his shirt it' is just the tip of a larger problem.

 

[Eagle92]

The youth not listening to youth is the reason why I liked it that my old troop 1)had youth sign off on requirements up to First Class i.e. PL, LC, ASPL, SPL and 2)a youth leader also sat on the BoR, again up til First Class. Usually this a Leadership Corps member you was not teaching that nite.

 

[BrentAllen]

Our Troop has a quarterly Honor Patrol competition, where points are earned for uniforming, attendance and advancement. The Scouts in the patrols put the pressure on to be in complete uniform (Scout pants, shirt, belt, socks). As SM, I don't have to worry about it, other than making sure I'm in complete uniform at all Scout events.

[Eamonn]

Uniform is a method of Scouting.

I'm 101% for it.

How we go about getting to where we want to be is the $64,000 question.

I find the idea of leaving a Lad out of something or him not participating with the rest of the Troop really repulsive.

It is not in keeping with being kind and to my way of thinking is just plain wrong.

As adults it is up to us to help create an environment where Scouts want to wear the uniform.

Peer pressure can be used, but needs to be watched very carefully. When it reaches a "I'm going to whack you because you let the Patrol down!" Clearly the Lad making the statement needs help with making ethical choices.

As we all know uniform is not required for membership and making it a requirement for a BOR or a SM conference would seem to follow this, that is if it's not required how the heck can we make it a requirement?

Ea.

[BrentAllen]

Eamonn,

I don't know if your "I'm going to whack you because you let the Patrol down!" was directed to me, but it appears to be. For the record, none of our Scouts have ever "whacked" anyone for not being in uniform. They do ask them why they aren't in uniform and let them know they are letting the patrol down. That is building patrol spirit. We have even had some Scouts bring an extra belt to meetings because one of their patrol members was constantly forgetting his. If that isn't patrol spirit, I don't know what is.

 

A Troop has every right to set expectations. If a boy doesn't want to wear the uniform, he is welcome to be in Scouting, just not in our Troop. If a Scout showed up for a BOR and started cussing like a sailor, what would you do? Would you just ignore it, or would you try to correct his behaviour? What if he was constantly cussing and picking fights in meetings and on campouts? What if it got so bad that Scouts were leaving because of it? Would you kick him out and make him miss everything the BSA has to offer? There aren't any regulations against cussing that I'm aware of, but most Troops won't tolerate it. How can that be enforced? Is that any different than uniforming?

 

If a Troop has a correct uniforming policy and one boy refuses to follow it, how is that boy being loyal or helpful or courteous or obedient?

 

As a Scouter, you have an obligation to promote the wearing of the correct complete uniform (see Official BSA Policy and Insignia Guide). Requiring the Scout to wear the correct complete uniform to BORs and SM conferences or any suitable Scouting event would fall under this obligation.

[Buffalo Skipper]

I have a 16 year old SPL who does not like to wear his (scout) pants. We went to visit a troop to "get some ideas" about 4 months ago. I warned him that the troop we were visiting was notorious for wearing their uniforms, always. He tried to make some excuse, but I said I was just letting him know. He showed up in his scout shirt and blue and white striped soccer pants. We had no sooner gotten in the door than a young 11 year old scout wearing "Coke-bottle" glasses (you could almost see the snot dripping down his nose...) came up to him, stood in his space, looked him up and down once and then looked up into his face and said smartly, "Where are your pants?" He was really taken aback and wasn't sure how to respond. Holding back my laughter, I stepped in to save face and said, we're visiting from another troop. The boy walked around to his shoulder, eyed his troop number, replied "So you are," and walked away.

 

For Scout Sunday, the troop ushered all the services, and our SPL was the only one not to wear a complete uniform. An older church member came up to me and asked, "That tall boy in the back, can he not afford a pair of pants? I will certainly buy him a pair of pants if he needs them." I explained that he was a teenager and what he really needed was a kick in the pants. She laughed and when on her way.

 

We have really worked hard, and now all but two of the older teenagers show up in a complete uniform every week. With the new scouts coming in, I hope we can keep this trend. For years this was a belt up uniformed troop. The scouts have recently begun enforcing with one another to have their shirts tucked in as well. It is nice to see we are making progress.

[Eamonn]

No Brent, to tell the truth I wasn't even thinking about you!

I was and am upset that any adult would pick on a youth member and not allow him to fully participate in the program just because he wasn't wearing a uniform, or would hand out treats to only those who are in uniform.

 

A long time back Doug McPhee, was a PL in the Troop which I served. Doug was a great kid, but had a very quick temper and was very competitive.

I'm not sure if both his parents being from Scotland played any part in the fact that he loved to fight?

He "Ruled" his Patrol, with a leadership style that Attila the Hun would have been proud of.

Of course I was aware of this and kept a special eye on him.

I think that maybe into days enlightened way of doing things maybe he would be a candidate for anger management classes.

 

As I posted I'm 101% for us having uniform as a method of Scouting.

I just can't see how a unit can penalize a Scout for not having or not wearing a uniform as long as the uniform is not a requirement for membership. It just doesn't make any sense!

Do we want the Scout we serve to wear the uniform?

Yes we do.

But the big part of what we do is having Scouts do the right thing, because it's the right thing to do. This works along the lines of making ethical choices /decisions.

When we tell a Scout that he has to wear a uniform (Which isn't required for membership) or he can't fully participate, we are in fact taking away any choice that he has. He is no longer doing the right or ethical thing to do he is following orders.

 

My kid (OJ) always had full correct uniforms.

When he was chauffeured to and from the meetings, he wore full uniform. I think because he knew that I would be on his case if he didn't. (Even though the Troop had a Shirt only requirement.)

This changed once he started driving himself.

The Scout shirt was thrown in the back of the car and that was how he went.

About the same time he became deeply involved in the OA,serving as an officer at the local and sectional level.

For OA events he alway wore a full uniform that was pressed and neat, going so far as to having me buy the more expensive wool uniform.

No one in the OA made any threats or even made a big deal about uniform.

So what changed?

Same kid, same family?

I think what changed from the Troop to the OA was the environment.

He for some reason seen that him being in full uniform for OA events was important to him. He seen it as being the right thing to do.

As I see it the uniform method is about us the adults finding and creating such an environment, while not resorting to threats or not allowing full participation.

This talk about "Troop Requirements" is all well and good, but is it really doing anything that helps the youth we serve make ethical choices?

Or is the choice: Follow the rule or else?

Eamonn.

[Eagle92]

Eamonn

What if the PL and/or SPL sent the out of uniform scout home to get the uniform for a trip? My old troop had expectations. We also told folks of consequences. And everything was explained to the scouts by the SPL or PL. Parents were told the same thing via the troop committee. You show up out of uniform, you better have it on a hanger to change into, or you will be sent home to get it. You show up late at the departure point, you are on your own to get to the camping trip (an aside the troop always stopped at a particular gas station near the departure point and late scouts had until we finshed gassing up and left the gas station. We occasionaly had a scout "meet" us there. After seeing. having this occur once, we didn't have problems for a few years.).

 

See in out troop, we taught responsibility by having them suffer the consequences. We made some allowances for uniforms, i.e. new scouts had a grace period where the troop T-shirt was OK until they got their uniform, non scout green pants OK as long as it wasn't obvious, black socks Ok, etc, but we were uniformed in appearance.

 

Also we encouraged folks to turn in their "experienced" uniforms and sold them to scouts as needed.

[BrentAllen]

Eamonn,

Could it also be the OA set the expectation of the uniform? And the Troop set another? That is what it sounds like to me, so your son was just following the expectations set.

 

I wouldn't ever punish a boy for not being in uniform by not allowing him to participate in a function. I do think that is going too far. We find that peer pressure works great for our Troop. No threats, just expectations - a huge difference.

 

Coming back from the Okefenokee Swamp yesterday, just as we were about to leave the parking lot (after spending 3 nights out at Mixon's Hammock) I noticed 3 Scouts not wearing uniform pants. I called their PL over and asked him (in front of these 3) why they weren't in proper uniform for the trip home. He looked to them and they came up with several excuses, none of which were valid. I told the PL that when I was a Scout, if that happened, my SM would wait for the Troop to unload the gear, the boys to get their uniforms on, and the equipment reloaded before we left. I told the PL I would give him a pass this one time, but not to expect it again. We were in public, and I expected them to look like Scouts. This expectation applies to the adults as well, and we were all in correct complete uniform.

 

This may seem petty to some, but it is part of the bigger picture. It is part of following group instructions and being prepared. If the boys can't or won't follow these instructions, what about when it comes to a more serious issue, like bringing a water bottle or first aid kit or survival kit? It is part of being a team, making sure you are prepared so that you don't become a liability.

 

Eamonn, what if every boy in a Troop decided they didn't want to wear the uniform, ever. As you say, they can do that. How is the uniform method being used in that Troop? To be a method, it has to be applied. There has to be a process, a plan, a system, a procedure. If no uniform is accepted, then I don't see how the method is being employed.

[Stosh]

After reading through all the different takes on this issue I noticed one that hasn't been addressed.

 

Uniforming as a rule to be enforced.

 

Uniforming as an expectation to be achieved.

 

I guess I've always viewed uniforming as a means of leadership focus for my troop officers instead. Many of the old requirements for rank required the boys to be observant and attuned to details around them. I find that a proper uniform forces each individual and then each officer to assume a role that goes beyond enforcement or even expectations to critical observation.

 

Before each meeting, the patrols all gather and the PL does a quick-over inspection of his boys so they look their best when they are called to fall in for the flag ceremony. Buttons buttoned, tails tucked, neckers straight, etc. It forces the PL to focus on the details that sets his patrol apart from the average run of the mill patrol, get by attitude that we are trying to work the boys through.

 

Before a hike, PL, do your boys have water? double socks? uniform? first aid kit? rain gear? - are your boys prepared? I teach a form of "servant leadership" that directs the PL's to take care of their members, that's why he's the leader. If the PL isn't going to watch out for his people, who is? Is this a rule? Nope. Is it an expectation? Nope. Is it what separates the good leaders that care for their followers or from those that don't? Yep.

 

Right from Tenderfoot on - buddy system, we teach our boys to care and watch out for someone other than just themselves. Two boys checking each other out just before inspection is how that leadership develops.

 

My boys wear full uniforms because they have pride in their patrol and don't want to let their buddies down. There's no rule or punishment for non-compliance, but we don't seem to have a problem either.

 

Stosh